Reflections On Emptiness - Q and A (1996)

0:00 By contemplating this, how desire is, you know, and observing it. I mean, like for a monk, you think, I used to come from that, I shouldn't have desires, I've got to get rid of them. Report an error in the passage at 0:00

0:23 Because that was generally how I thought when I became a monk. That was my attitude, and how I'd read the scriptures was, You've got to get rid of desire. You're celibate now and you're a monk with four requisites, robes and bowl, and you should be content with the alms food in your bowl and the robes and get rid of desire. Report an error in the passage at 0:23

0:49 The logic from those ideas was that way. But then it's experience. It's something else, isn't it? It's not a logical thing, but it's... You find even though you're on four requisites, your desires tend to, you've still got this whole habit of desire. Report an error in the passage at 0:49

1:13 So even though you're celibate, and your idea of having just robes and bowls, they're very simple things, I found the first couple of years as a monk, I'd become obsessed with my robes and bowl. Report an error in the passage at 1:13

1:32 All the desires that went out, everything would... Report an error in the passage at 1:32

1:47 They have this that you can't eat solid food in the afternoon, but they allow Report an error in the passage at 1:47

1:59 kind of sweets that don't have milk in them or anything, so they'd have In Northeast Thailand, they didn't have chocolate or anything, all the kind of luxuries they have here, but very basic things, like sugar, like granulated sugar. Report an error in the passage at 1:59

2:16 And I'd become obsessed with sugar in the afternoon, almost like a hungry ghost, looking for a hit of sugar. And when I was a layman, I didn't care about sugar at all. When I was a layman, my desires could cover all kinds of other things. And one thing I could see was that the monastic form, because of its renunciate and its limitation, you'd fix, your desires would still be there. Report an error in the passage at 2:16

2:48 But you wouldn't be desiring something you couldn't have, because something in you could let go of that. Because you ask to be a monk, you know, they didn't force you into it, so you're willing to live within the restraint of monasticism. But then the desires are still rampant for the things that you can have. Report an error in the passage at 2:48

3:12 I remember the color of my robe. When they first started allowing chemical dyes, before, when I first ordained, they'd only use the jackfruit dye. From a tree, jackfruit trees. And then that was a hard process, you know, to keep dyeing your robes with that. And then they started allowing chemical dyes where you could get nice colors. Report an error in the passage at 3:12

3:40 I became obsessed with the color of this. I remember thinking in the meditations of how I could get hold of the right amounts of these dyes. Get this perfect. Report an error in the passage at 3:40

3:56 But it's through that that you begin to really understand desire. And it's not through, you know, one felt embarrassed and guilty about these desires, but the encouragement was to examine rather than to just, you know, try to suppress it. Report an error in the passage at 3:56

4:17 So in some ways you could see you need certain margins like sugar, things like this, or things that... If it's too ascetic, then it tends to, you don't have a way of examining certain things. So in Buddhist monasticism, Buddha was trying to develop a style between asceticism and indulgence. And that's quite, even though to many people it looks ascetic, it's not really, because we're not into denying. Report an error in the passage at 4:17

4:55 Or, you know, into harmful practices of just denial of desire and rejection of the world, but in using renunciation as a mirror for all our worldly materialistic habits. Report an error in the passage at 4:55

5:13 Yes? Report an error in the passage at 5:13

5:30 I've contemplated that a lot. And this is just my reflection on it, but one thing I could see that we'd... I think like we tend to have oftentimes very high standards of what we should be. And so we are always criticizing ourselves because we're never as good as the ideal. That's one reflection. Like I can see, you know, like if you want to be a kind, loving, generous person, Report an error in the passage at 5:30

6:22 And then, you know, as an ideal, and then you find yourself miserly and mean-hearted, thoughts going through your mind, then you can only hate yourself because you shouldn't, you know, that's bad and you should be... And people do emphasize, like here in England I noticed, people will emphasize and exaggerate their faults. Report an error in the passage at 6:22

6:51 You know, they'll take what's wrong. The thing that's not the flaw that they have and make a big thing out of it. And then you point out that that flaw is relatively minor compared to their virtues. Report an error in the passage at 6:51

7:08 But they're so used to being obsessed with the flaw that they can't even see their own virtues or dismiss it. Also, I think in basic culture We tend to see ourselves as, you know, when you look at the kind of cultural development of Europeans from Judaism and Christianity, you get this idea that you're basically corrupt when you're born. Report an error in the passage at 7:08

7:45 You don't have a feeling that you're basically pure. I might be wrong in this, but... And this is what I, I mean, from my experience, you have the feeling you're basically corrupt. Adam and Eve, it's their fault. And it's Eve's fault. Report an error in the passage at 7:45

8:12 And now with feminism, it's Adam's fault. But whoever's fault it is, it happened long ago, and we're the result of it. And so, you know, the idea that you're born in sin is, even though maybe, Your intelligent mind denies that and says, I don't believe that. That is something that influences the culture underneath. Report an error in the passage at 8:12

8:38 A lot of attitudes and assumptions come from that. So to feel good about yourself is... I've been reading this book about 14th century Europe. Report an error in the passage at 8:38

9:02 The time of, say, in Britain and in France and Italy where during the 14th century with the plague and all these warring factions are taking place and these flagellants, people were, there were whole groups of people going through Europe whipping themselves, flagellating themselves. Report an error in the passage at 9:02

9:30 To stop the plague. They thought God was punishing everybody for how bad we are. This idea of penance for your sins and that we're sinners and we're bad. Report an error in the passage at 9:30

9:47 This is very much one way of always feeling guilty. And then when you ask... People like in Asia or Thais or the Dalai Lama, for example, the Dalai Lama was asked about it. He said Tibetan people basically like themselves. They have a basic self-respect. Even though they can be just as bad as any European, but the basic underlying attitude is... Report an error in the passage at 9:47

10:33 Seeing themselves basically pure, and then through their actions, through their greed, hatred, and delusion, they create these impure acts. And Thai people are like that also. And so one time we had Thanjavakun Panyananda here, in this very room, a very highly regarded Thai monk, elderly monk. And I remember... Report an error in the passage at 10:33

11:01 Somebody was asking about guilt. Asked the same question you asked. And we had to try to translate this guilt into Thai. Report an error in the passage at 11:01

11:14 And Thanjavakun Panjananda couldn't quite get it. And there was this English monk, Thanjavakun Panjananda, who was very good at Thai, really expert, trying to find the right equivalent in Thai for... For what we mean by guilt here in this country. And so then finally, Thanjavakun Panjananda couldn't figure out why this was such a problem. Report an error in the passage at 11:14

11:43 He said, well, that's just a minor kind of problem for Thais. Just a mental agitation. Minor mental agitation, he said. And we said, not here. It's a major. Major. Report an error in the passage at 11:43

12:04 And so when we asked them about how Thai people, not all people, but generally there's a culture. They tend to have a positive image of them, basic image of themselves. Sometimes they see themselves as, you know, they'll say I'm too lazy to practice or they'll put themselves down to justify their desire for pleasure and having a good time. Report an error in the passage at 12:04

12:32 Getting drunk or doing whatever. But I don't think the guilt, the obsessive guilt and self-aversion isn't there. And where it is in England, very strong. And in America, you hear all these kind of movements now where people have tapes that they... People telling me the other day they have a... You know, you put on this tape when you go to sleep at night, and the tape just affirms, I am a wonderful person. Report an error in the passage at 12:32

13:16 And it goes on all night, you know, you're sleeping, so you kind of wake up and you think, I'm a wonderful person. Why do you have to do that? Because you don't think you are, really. You have to convince yourself. And because basically the society is saying, you're not, you're, you know, pretty... Report an error in the passage at 13:16

13:37 You're not a very good person. It's generally how you regard yourself. How do you do, like when you're, as a child, when you start having bad thoughts, Report an error in the passage at 13:37

13:58 like I was pretty good, you know, I was always quite a good boy and I didn't like to, I wasn't cruel, like I didn't like to, I like to torture animals or like to torture my sister, but I wasn't that good. I feel really ashamed of myself for the things I used to do to her, but animals, no. Report an error in the passage at 13:58

14:30 My sister and I are now very good friends. There's a certain sibling rivalry there. But suddenly you find... You know, like I remember, I don't know how old I was. I must have been about nine years old, something like that. And I was on a public transport, on a bus in Seattle. And an awful thought came into my mind, a maniacal thought, a really evil thought of wanting to murder babies. Report an error in the passage at 14:30

15:07 And how I got this thought, you know, it was... Babies. Report an error in the passage at 15:07

15:11 You know, for a boy, that's probably about the most evil thing I could think of. And that came up in my mind. I remember when I was on this bus. Report an error in the passage at 15:11

15:23 I remember feeling terrified of such a thought. Because the logic is, only a bad person could think a thought like that. So I must be bad. Report an error in the passage at 15:23

15:39 And so, you know, a lot of fear came from that. Because then I began to really mistrust myself and see that there was something very bad about me. Because a good person would never think that kind of a thought. And in those days, Americans were not into talking about their feelings or anything else. We played, my generation, we played roles. Report an error in the passage at 15:39

16:11 You know, the... You know, nothing frightens me. I'm a fearless man. I'm not afraid of anything. And inside you're shaking. Your guts are turning. I'm tough. I'm not afraid of anybody. You're playing roles. But you're not... And you can't admit to anyone what you're actually feeling. So then in terms of... Report an error in the passage at 16:11

16:46 Of dhamma, like in Buddhism, you see like a bad thought or a good thought is impermanent. I want to help all sentient beings and save all sentient beings from suffering is a thought. I want to murder all the babies in the world is a thought. Report an error in the passage at 16:46

17:13 And then you're determined to do the good. in Buddhism, Report an error in the passage at 17:13

17:29 So you're seeing that even the bad thought is It arises, ceases, it's not Self. that way you break down this sense of guilt that you have. Report an error in the passage at 17:29

17:45 because you aren't as good. Good, or you can't be this idyllic good person as an ongoing, relentlessly unmitigated goodness that you think you should be, and then hate yourself because you break down and hate somebody. Report an error in the passage at 17:45

18:10 And then you exaggerate that, and I must be horrible, I'm not a good person at all, I'm a horrible person. Where when you're looking at in terms of dhamma, then you're seeing, well, you know, hating people is also a condition that arises and ceases and is not self. And in terms of action speech, we don't act on it. But we're certainly aware of it. Report an error in the passage at 18:10

18:40 And you're no longer identifying with it. Report an error in the passage at 18:40

18:48 Because that's where in Buddhism, what I found very... Useful for me was that morality is in regards to action and speech rather than thought. Report an error in the passage at 18:48

19:10 Where I was brought up to think that you had immoral thoughts and therefore you're an immoral person because you have immoral thoughts. But in Buddhism, immorality comes through action and speech, not through thought. So sometimes you have, you know... Bad thoughts, immoral thoughts, or thoughts that are considered immoral, dirty thoughts or whatever, gross desires and so forth that you can consider as bad, but you're aware of them in terms of dharma. Report an error in the passage at 19:10

20:00 Then you're in that position of... ...of seeing and knowing rather than of just reacting and complicating it all. Seeing it as, I shouldn't think like that, I shouldn't feel like that, I'm horrible for even thinking such a thought. The way that one can feel guilty and hate oneself over what might be coming up in your consciousness. Report an error in the passage at 20:00

20:43 Yes, in... In Buddhist countries, it's considered a blessing to be a human being. That's a good point. Report an error in the passage at 20:43

20:57 It's a fortunate birth. Report an error in the passage at 20:57

21:02 It's because of all your good actions in previous lives that you're a human being. That's a different way of looking at it. I think Adam and Eve, through their weakness, we're suffering. We're born into this realm. We're already corrupt. And we've got to... Somehow this futile idea, you know, we've got to make ourselves, you know, uncorrupt in some way. When we're born, already this idea of being corrupted. Report an error in the passage at 21:02

21:47 But this is where I think like Dr. Vajranyana is coming from this meeting in this Benedictine monastery in Kentucky. Because you find in, you know, like in, I've been to some meetings in, Report an error in the passage at 21:47

22:09 Catholic or Anglican monasteries, and especially amongst monastics, Anglican monastics or Roman Catholic, there's a common ground, and monasticism has a kind of common bond to it. You appreciate each other. Just the fact that monks and nuns, regardless of the particular religion, And then also, because monasticism is a contemplative life, and especially in Roman Catholicism, there's a real searching going on for, you know, a maturing. Report an error in the passage at 22:09

23:01 Because one always felt that Christianity tried to keep, like I can see that... The reason why I rebelled against it was that I was presented with a very infantile version of Christianity. And it didn't grow up, you know. I grew up, but God was still an old man, patriarch, and didn't change. I mean, when you grow up, you know, you can believe that, like Santa Claus or something. Report an error in the passage at 23:01

24:08 The Christian context that I grew up in. But now you feel there is a, like in, you see it in Italy and here in Britain, in America, much more a kind of awareness and openness and where God now is, I mean I've heard Christian monks talk about God as no thing. In fact, a few years back in this room, a monk, an Anglican monk from Oxford was here, and he was talking, and he was saying, God is no thing. Report an error in the passage at 24:08

24:50 Proclaiming it. And of course, there's an interfaith meeting. Some people are very upset by that, because it sounded like a denial of God. You know, like you're... You're denying God or you're destroying God. But for Buddhists, that is quite, you know, one can relate to that and appreciate that. And this monk was meaning, he wasn't meaning a rejection or denial or destruction, but a much more mature and mystical relationship, mystical experience. Report an error in the passage at 24:50

25:50 And oftentimes that's where, you know, you're not supposed to make images of God, even in Christianity. You're not supposed to make images of God. Like you can make images of Christ or saints. Or like in Buddhism, you can make images of Buddha. Report an error in the passage at 25:50

26:22 But you can't make images of dhamma. You make symbols like dhamma jakka, wheels and that. But dhamma has never been personified, never been anthropomorphized. It always remains dhamma as a realization rather than as a personification. Where the personification comes through Buddha rather than through dhamma. Report an error in the passage at 26:22

26:52 And Saṅgha also is like the church or the congregation, those who practice, the practicers. So that we can relate to Saṅgha when we're practicing, when we're as refuge in the community of people, of those who are practicing. Report an error in the passage at 26:52

27:19 Because the ultimate is ineffable. And you're getting beyond the form. And conditions. Report an error in the passage at 27:19

27:45 Roshi. If Report an error in the passage at 27:45

27:50 she were Hindu, she'd be a Rishi. If Report an error in the passage at 27:50

27:59 she were Zen, she'd be a Roshi. Report an error in the passage at 27:59

28:08 That's where you feel there is this, that religious conventions aren't denials of each other. Report an error in the passage at 28:08

28:28 Or that you have to reject one by... Becoming another. Like in terms of dharma, you don't feel that you have to reject Christianity or Judaism. It's not like to be a Buddhist you have to promise you're not a Christian anymore. Because you're getting outside that whole realm of becoming something. Report an error in the passage at 28:28

29:00 So you're not... Looking at it in terms of to become a Buddhist you have to believe this and you can't believe that. But you're actually looking at that very process of believing or not believing in things. Report an error in the passage at 29:00

29:28 Well that, like in the Report an error in the passage at 29:28

29:33 mystical Report an error in the passage at 29:33

29:42 forms of any religion is where you're realizing non-duality. Report an error in the passage at 29:42

29:52 Then the conventional forms can be very dualistic. So like fundamentalism, fundamentalist approaches to religion tend to be dualistic. Report an error in the passage at 29:52

30:06 This is right and that's wrong, absolutizing of the relative. This is we're right, you're wrong. Our way is right, your way. If you don't agree with our way, then you're wrong. That's like fundamentalism. And you see it, I see it in Buddhism sometimes, I see it in Christianity, Islam, it has this sense of, it's very divisive, you know, we're right, you're wrong. Report an error in the passage at 30:06

30:35 There's no room for discussion. Report an error in the passage at 30:35

30:39 Then the contemplative forms are, you know, you can see with Catholicism, this meeting in Kentucky and so forth. Then you're working on a contemplative level, not from a dualistic one. So you're not fixed, you're not committed to or attached to the symbols of your religion anymore. You're not operating from fixed positions, but from more reflection and contemplation. Report an error in the passage at 30:39

31:20 And then mystical experience is something that you experience directly. So it's not a matter of anyone else being able to tell you what it is. Report an error in the passage at 31:20

31:34 But, you know, you can, but oftentimes we explain it in the language that we have from our religion. So you have, like in Buddhism, you have a whole, the whole Buddhist language is very... Aimed at that, and being able to talk about or to think in a way that is, say, not just coming from the basic illusions of your cultural background. Report an error in the passage at 31:34

32:12 But then you read about the Christian mystics and their experience, even though they may be talking in a very Christian way. About their experience. You're not just interpreting the words in a very doctrinal way. You're getting a feeling for what they're actually saying. And in that more intuitive feeling, more intuitive understanding, then you don't feel it's different. Report an error in the passage at 32:12

32:52 Or that it's a Christian ultimate truth and a Buddhist ultimate truth. You know, it doesn't... Remember, Report an error in the passage at 32:52

33:03 When Ajahn Chah was in England in 79, we went to this place in Sussex, a seminary or something, and I remember a man asking, Ajahn Chah, is the Buddhist ultimate truth different from the Christian ultimate truth? And Ajahn Chah looks and he says, how can there be two ultimate truths? Report an error in the passage at 33:03

33:36 Those kind of religions are, they're basically, we're right, you're wrong. They're very committed. In some ways, they're operating out of compassion because they feel you're wrong. They want to help you to be right. Report an error in the passage at 33:36

33:57 In one way, they mean well, but they don't have much wisdom in their religion. They operate from ideas. They aren't aware of what their If you're Report an error in the passage at 33:57

34:35 coming from anger and hatred, then it tends to create that in the person you're talking to. But if you're not, if you wait till the anger passes, then you've got a stronger position. Report an error in the passage at 34:35

34:54 If I get angry with you, and you're not mindful, then you'll get angry back. We just fight. We're not listening to each other, we're just reacting. But if I get angry with you, and you don't react with anger, and you wait till your anger's gone, then that helps me, in fact. Report an error in the passage at 34:54

35:29 Because then I can, you know, you're not feeding that in me. And then I'm capable of maybe, it's more possible to hear what you're saying. But if I'm just reacting to you, then I don't even hear what you're saying. I'm just picking up. She hates me. You can't even hear. Maybe you've got something important to tell me. Report an error in the passage at 35:29

36:00 But because you're angry, I can't even hear what you're saying. You know, I hear it maybe on one level. Emotionally, I only pick up the anger and hatred you feel towards me. That's why I found, you know, like in living in community, when I react in anger to somebody, even though I'm saying, you know, maybe they're doing something really stupid, and I'm... Report an error in the passage at 36:00

36:34 But I'm coming from anger and aversion to them. They pick up the anger and aversion. Report an error in the passage at 36:34

36:45 That's what they remember, not the good advice that I'm giving them. Report an error in the passage at 36:45

36:57 That's why it's, you know, but sometimes, you know, like a strong approach does have, you know, but I've found sometimes you can use a kind of fierceness to make a point. them. Report an error in the passage at 36:57

37:18 But to make it really effective is that you can't really be angry when you're doing it. Report an error in the passage at 37:18

37:31 Or like, you know, when your mother's seeing her little child run out in the street, you know, she's got to make a strong statement. She says, Report an error in the passage at 37:31

37:46 now dear, you mustn't go out in the street. The little kid might not understand, you know, not realize that. Report an error in the passage at 37:46

38:00 concern, and not hatred, but concern. Report an error in the passage at 38:00

38:10 very strong. Balls are over. Report an error in the passage at 38:10

38:23 is a big like me. Report an error in the passage at 38:23

38:38 I think that's enough for this afternoon, and week... Ajahn Vir Dhammo will give the talk, because I'm leading a retreat, Thai retreat, next weekend. So, please... We're all invited to come next Sunday. Report an error in the passage at 38:38