Mountains Walk and Rivers Talk

0:00 This podcast is offered by San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Report an error in the passage at 0:00

0:13 Good evening. Pleasure to see you all. An honor to be here. To thank my good friend and Dharma brother, Tim. Thank my teacher, Ed Saddison. Thank all of you for being here and all of you that are out there on Zoom. Hi out there. So I come to you with a very heavy heart tonight. Report an error in the passage at 0:13

0:51 In the last week, there was two very dramatic incidents of trauma, just traumatic things occurred in my life. And the first one was a week ago today. tonight. Report an error in the passage at 0:51

1:10 My daughter-in-law, her name's Amy Hilliard, disappeared. And she has been troubled of recent months and has sought out help and was doing better. Except three weeks ago, she made a suicide attempt and she got further, more intensive care. Report an error in the passage at 1:10

1:38 But as I mentioned a week ago today, she walked out of the house at 2 p.m. and walked down the street and has vanished. And there's been no trace, nothing, no clues since, in spite of a massive effort to locate her. All fronts, volunteers, working daily, well coordinated, private investigators, sheriff search and rescue teams, psychics and tarot readers and private investigators. Report an error in the passage at 1:38

2:15 It's really, it's touched me deeply, obviously, particularly my son. He's 52 years old and a beautiful and a creative. And a very involved woman in the community. And my two granddaughters, 18 and 20, I'm very concerned. Obviously, it's dramatically affected them and is. And how someone in this day and age can just vanish so completely is unfathomable to me. Report an error in the passage at 2:15

2:53 But so far, that's the case. Second thing. Tragedy that occurred was the next day on Thursday, and most of you have probably heard about that. The zendo at Tassajara burnt down, literally, completely to the ground. Report an error in the passage at 2:53

3:14 Unbeknownst how the fire started, not through negligence, you know, candles or kerosene lamps, but somehow it sparked and burnt. And obviously, that's the center of Tassajara, our Zen monastery. And for the second time, it burned down. It burned down in 1978. I was supposed to go there yesterday for the shuso ceremony, the ceremony honoring the head monk, a good friend, Ellen Simpson, who I remember the day she first walked in the door here. Report an error in the passage at 3:14

3:55 been my honor to practice with her and be nourished by her and nourish her over these past, I don't know, over 15 years. Report an error in the passage at 3:55

4:07 So unfortunately, that shuso ceremony was held, but only for a small group of people and those there. And the tragedy of Tassajara goes on. Well, both these things are deeply affecting me. As I've said, fortunately, I have a Zen practice and it's never been more meaningful to me and more supportive and more important and Report an error in the passage at 4:07

4:47 more comforting and helping me to touch at least equanimity and not be overly, overly sad or not be overly go whatever other way. I was blessed that when both these events occurred last week on Wednesday and Thursday, I was sitting downstairs in the Zendo in Sashin. Report an error in the passage at 4:47

5:16 We were doing a five-day Sashin, and I have to say that Zazen, I think that was, I've appreciated it now for over 20 years, but I appreciated it even more so. Report an error in the passage at 5:16

5:34 on those days because they helped me stay focused, stay present, and have some sense of equanimity. So, you know, my Zen practice is important, was, is, and forever will be. And along with that, I'm also very blessed that I have a recovery practice. And those two together help me maintain Report an error in the passage at 5:34

6:04 And some sort of sanity sometimes, once in a while. Some people might question it now and then around here. But nonetheless, Tim knows me well. We've been friends for over 30 years. Every once in a while, he has to lecture me a bit and tell me to pull it in or pull it back. years. Report an error in the passage at 6:04

6:33 But it's interesting. It's also kind of a result of these tragedies. It's given me a greater sense of compassion for others. And I sit in there in the office and answer the phone. And I can be nice. And then the other day, I just, I don't know, one fellow touched me the wrong way. That bent the wrong way, and I wasn't compassionate towards him, but I realized it, and I was able to call him back and apologize for that. Report an error in the passage at 6:33

7:13 So even in the midst of tragedies, as tense as they may be, there's room to grow and room to learn, room to be compassionate and help others. Report an error in the passage at 7:13

7:30 And it's interesting, a few weeks ago, Aaron and Jeannie gave a dharma talk on a Saturday. And they quoted this Suzuki Roshi thing, which was really about rebuilding, interestingly enough, two cabins, creekside cabins down at Tassajara. And that inspired me to further delve into my practice. specifically the Mountain and Rivers Sūtra of Dogen. But Suzuki's quote was, nature is a true teacher of Zen, but not all who enter the mountains see them as they really are. Report an error in the passage at 7:30

8:16 Only those who know themselves can see the true nature of mountains. We should live and practice Zen until we appreciate the 13th century Zen master Dogen Zenji's poem. That's the Mountain and Waters Sūtra or the San Suikyo. The color, Suzuki Roshi goes on and finishes, the color of mountains is Buddha's pure body. The sound of running water is Buddha's great speech. Report an error in the passage at 8:16

8:50 And that inspired me and I went back and. looked at the Mountains and Rivers Sūtra, which Dogen wrote. He wrote it, I believe, I'm not sure, in 1240. So he wrote it when he was 40 years old. And it's probably his most beautiful and his most poetic sūtra. It's really wonderful. I encourage you to pick it up, to read it, delve into it. Report an error in the passage at 8:50

9:00 wrote Report an error in the passage at 9:00

9:27 And its message is really incredible. Its message is really vital at all times, and I'm finding it especially vital right now, today, right at this moment, and all these moments through this last week, because it's helped me to stay somewhat grounded and to be a support to my family, my son, my granddaughters, my daughter, my other son, and all those wonderful people. Report an error in the passage at 9:27

9:57 that are helping to find my daughter-in-law, and to all those wonderful people that are struggling and trying to figure out what to do and how to do it at Tassajara. Report an error in the passage at 9:57

10:10 So, Dogen wrote this sūtra in 1240 as part of the Shoban Goenso, and it's one of the 93 fascicles of the true dharma I. And interestingly, he wrote it not when he was off in the mountains at Eiji, His temple, which still exists. He wrote it while he was still in Kyoto. So it wasn't like he was off in the mountains and totally inspired by looking at the mountain over there. Report an error in the passage at 10:10

10:39 Wow, that mountain's walking. Mountains walk. Or that's a river. Oh, the river is the Buddha's tongue. It's Buddha's speech. Report an error in the passage at 10:39

10:49 No, he wrote it in Kyoto before he moved to Heiji. And this chapter is not a sūtra about mountains and waters, actually. Rather, Dogen says mountains and waters are themselves the sūtra. They wrote the sūtra. They unceasingly expound the Buddha's teaching. So it's forever there for you in the mountains and the rivers. Report an error in the passage at 10:49

11:18 And I don't think it means you have to go off, you know, perhaps to Tassajara or to wherever, you know. Mount Rainier, you can go to a mountain or a hill here in Golden Gate Park, but you don't have to go off there. You can have that mindset, and you can listen to that and feel that and know it in your body, and you can also hear it in the creeks that go by and the water that flows and the rain that came down today. Report an error in the passage at 11:18

11:50 After 80 degrees, there was quite a bit of rain today. Amazing, isn't it? So he says, the mountains and waters are themselves the sūtra. They unceasingly expound the Buddha's teaching. And that's a gift to us. The activities and sounds of mountains and rivers are in themselves a sūtra because they perfectly express the essence of the teachings of the historical Buddha. Report an error in the passage at 11:50

12:22 In this essay, Dogen is explaining what it is that mountains and rivers are teaching us. And they bring forth the lesson of impermanence, the impermanence of the zendo, the tasahara. Report an error in the passage at 12:22

12:40 Hopefully not, but frankly speaking, honestly speaking, perhaps the impermanence of my granddaughter. I mean, not my granddaughter, my daughter-in-law in this body, in this life. Report an error in the passage at 12:40

12:56 So how do we learn from these mountains walking? Because he talks about the mountains literally walk. And that's an expression of impermanence because in fact science has proved nothing is solid and unchangeable. It's all continually flowing and changing and developing. So how do we learn from these mountains and these river voices? Report an error in the passage at 12:56

13:25 How do we learn about impermanence? One source of Dogen's inspiration for the San Suikyo is a poem by the Chinese poet Xu Sui. And that poem goes as this. The voices of the river valley are the Buddha's wide and long tongue. So that river valley is speaking to us. It's Buddha speaking to us. The form of the mountains is nothing other than his pure body. Report an error in the passage at 13:25

14:01 That's Buddha's body. Interestingly, this last practice period that just concluded Friday here was about Buddha body, Buddha mind. Report an error in the passage at 14:01

14:14 And those are the things that came up all throughout that practice period. So the poem goes again. The voices of the river valley are the Buddha's wide and long tongue. Report an error in the passage at 14:14

14:36 The form of the mountains is nothing other than his pure body. Then he concludes, through the night, 84,000 verses. On another day, how can I tell them to others? So that's an important part of this. It's telling it to others, not just telling it to yourself and not just learning it yourself and not just practicing it yourself. Report an error in the passage at 14:36

15:01 And maybe not telling is perhaps not the best translation of that word tell. Sharing it with others, expressing it to others, manifesting it to others, modeling it to others. The landscape... Mountains and rivers are not merely a backdrop for practice, but they are the living body and speech of the Buddha. Report an error in the passage at 15:01

15:28 The valley stream is his voice, and the mountains form his body. So Dogen also wrote a poem on the Lotus Sūtra, and it goes, Colors of the mountain peak and echoes of the valley stream, all of them are... Nothing other than Shaka Muni's voice and appearance. Report an error in the passage at 15:28

15:57 So Zen's out there everywhere. Buddhism is there everywhere. And it's expressed to us everywhere in everything. And in one manner of form of noting that is the walking mountains and the talking rivers. Report an error in the passage at 15:57

16:17 They are indeed the voice of the Buddha. Report an error in the passage at 16:17

16:24 What is Shakyamuni's voice and appearance? To hear the teaching through mountains and waters, through everything we encounter every day, we have to free our eyes and ears of defilement by the three poisons, greed, hate, and delusion. And that's an ongoing practice because they keep arising in various forms, shapes. They're really tricky. Report an error in the passage at 16:24

16:54 They have all kinds of disguises, and we have all kinds of ways of suppressing them and not acknowledging them and thinking that we're rid of them or we're better than. And you know what? I don't think we are. I know I'm not. I know that I get caught in greed. I know that I get caught in delusion. I know I get caught in hate or anger. But through the symbolism of mountains and waters, Everything we encounter, we have to free our eyes and our actions from that. Gogan writes, Report an error in the passage at 16:54

17:35 Since ancient times, wise men and sages have lived by the water. This is an interesting part of the sūtra. When they live by the water, they hook fish, or they hook people, or they hook the way. These are all water styles of old. And going further, there must be hooking of self, hooking of the hook, being hooked by the hook, and being hooked by the way. Report an error in the passage at 17:35

18:14 Interestingly, when I first started practicing here, I was a non-resident, and I was coming every day, every morning. My teacher over there at the time, Victoria, she asked me to be her jiko. I actually asked him, I said, what's a jiko? And he said, oh, it's no big deal. And I don't think he was setting me up, but it was kind of, because I had to come every morning at 5 a.m. Report an error in the passage at 18:14

18:43 and drive here across town to meet with Victoria. And you know what? It was so beautiful, and I learned so much, and so much transformation and the transmission from one to another. But one day I went to see Paul, and I said, Paul, This Zen thing, it's crazy. I'm losing all the rest of my life. Report an error in the passage at 18:43

19:12 I used to have a really intense yoga practice and I used to go to lots and lots of AA meetings and I had time to do this and that and what have you. And he said, oh, you've been hooked by the straight hook. crazy it's it's Report an error in the passage at 19:12

19:31 And I said, what's that mean? He said, that's the hook that you're holding on to. And that's what we do. And that's what happens to us. Hopefully, ideally, depending on the hook you're holding on to. But yeah, I could not not grab that hook and hold on to it. And when he told me that, I went, oh, OK. Report an error in the passage at 19:31

19:55 And then somehow that aspect settled down. Again, quoting Dogen, and going further, there must be hooking of the self, hooking of the hook, and being hooked by the hook, and being hooked by the way. So we can all be, and I was hooked by the way, the way, not by the way. Probably by the way, too, as a matter of fact. Report an error in the passage at 19:55

20:25 Maybe that's what it was. It was by the way. But I don't know. Now it's the way. So be open for that. And that will give you and help you gain equanimity in the face of tragedies and traumas and difficult things that are going on. That will help you hear the river speak to you, Buddha's tongue. And that will help you see the mountains moving and walking and realize. Report an error in the passage at 20:25

21:03 That this world's impermanent. This moment is impermanent. The Mountains and Waters Sūtra challenged the practitioner to see that enlightenment is not something to be attained elsewhere or in the future, but is actively manifesting right now in the phenomenal world right here at this moment. Each and every moment. So Dogen calls for a total intimate engagement within the present moment. Report an error in the passage at 21:03

21:44 And that's the essence of Soto Zen, which is our lineage here. Being present in this very moment. Total engagement in the present moment. For a long time, prior to coming to Zen Center, I tried to meditate, and you know what? It didn't work. I mean, I wasn't getting anything, and I didn't get, you know, I didn't levitate, and I didn't see colored lights or hear celestial sounds, you know. Report an error in the passage at 21:44

22:15 It was a revelation to find out, oh, I'm just supposed to be here present right now. So Dogen calls for a total intimate engagement with the present moment, treating everything around us as unfolding, Living Expression of the Sacred. So Report an error in the passage at 22:15

22:41 it's interesting. I came across a quote during this past practice period about Buddha body, Buddha mind, and it was by Thich Nhat Hanh. And he said, Reconnecting with our physical body takes only a few moments of stopping and breathing with awareness. Report an error in the passage at 22:41

23:04 That's like stopping and breathing, watching the mountains. Here in the rivers. It is strange, Thich Nhat Hanh says, it is strange that we are scared of what happens to our physical body when we die. Report an error in the passage at 23:04

23:22 And yet we are not truly enjoying our physical body while we are alive. So that's a part of this message also of this sūtra. Enjoy your physical body. Treat it well, but enjoy it also. Honor it. and take care of it. So this sūtra identifies the natural world as a direct expression of Buddha Dharma. The central meaning is that landscape, mountains, and rivers are not merely the backdrop for practice, but are the living body in the speech of the Buddha. Report an error in the passage at 23:22

24:01 The walking mountains and flowing rivers challenge the conventional dualistic view of stillness and motion. So we have that This is still, and that's moving. No, it's all moving. Those mountains are walking. Dogen uses it to show that reality is a constant flow of impermanence and change. Report an error in the passage at 24:01

24:30 It's hard to accept. It's hard to accept that my daughter-in-law is still missing. And who knows where she is and if she'll ever be found. It's hard to accept that there's no more zendo, for the moment at least, at Tassajara. But he uses this to show that reality is a constant flow of impermanence and change, even when all things appear stationary. Report an error in the passage at 24:30

25:01 That's an illusion that it's all stationary. We think mountains are solid. We think... Our concepts are solid. They're not. We get caught in our concepts. They exist in this moment, and then they're gone. When we realize this, we know mountains are walking. There is no such thing as something solid. Everything, everything is moving all of the time. Report an error in the passage at 25:01

25:29 The text teaches us that there is no separation between the practitioner and the landscape. We are one with the landscape. When a person enters the mountains, they merge with them, making mountains their own body and mind, just like the Buddha's body and mind. The activities and sounds of mountains and rivers are in themselves a sūtra because they perfectly express the essence of the teachings of the historical Buddha. Report an error in the passage at 25:29

26:02 In this essay, Dogen is explaining that the mountains and rivers is explaining what they teach us. And it's interesting, there's a thing, you know, talking about permanence and impermanence and how things happen. You know, in here it talks about the stone woman. And you may have heard about the stone woman before, even in the jewel mirror samādhi. Report an error in the passage at 26:02

26:28 All of a sudden, the wooden man starts singing and she jumps up and starts dancing. How does the stone woman do this? Unbelievable. But this is even more miraculous. The stone woman gives birth to a child at midnight in this sūtra. Report an error in the passage at 26:28

26:49 I mean, is that? That's not solid. That's not, you know, fixed just like this that way. Rational thought, linear thought does not express reality. She danced in a jewel mirror samādhi. The stone woman gives birth at night through symbolic Metaphysical. Metamorphically, it represents an empty, still, and non-living void creating life in silence. Report an error in the passage at 26:49

27:20 So life is created out of all things. It can be created out of non-living voids. The stone woman represents emptiness or silence that in the middle of the night, the darkest or most unknown time, produces life or reality. So we just don't know. We have these fixed, strange ideas of this is the way the world is, and this is the way it ought to be, and this is the way I want it to be. Report an error in the passage at 27:20

27:55 And the truth is, this is the way that it is. The void giving rise to being. So I'd like to conclude. Norman Fisher, who most of you probably know of, previous abbot here at City Center and the founder and guiding teacher of everyday Zen and an incredible poet. He wrote a book, a study book about the rivers, Mountains and Rivers Sūtra, and I recommend that also. Report an error in the passage at 27:55

28:36 It has exercises in it. But Norman wrote a poem regarding this. And I'll conclude with Norman's poem. I am a green mountain walking in an ever-deepening spiral. Or a labyrinth, perhaps. I happen to be very fond of labyrinths. I am a green mountain walking in an ever-deepening spiral into inconceivable, mysterious birth. Report an error in the passage at 28:36

29:10 Before the universe was born and long after it has died, I'm a child born at night from the cold, hard womb of a stone woman, born as a mountain where I am embraced and nourished by a soft forest floor, watered by spring and fall rains, caressed by passing breeze, I am a melody in your heart, here and gone, here and gone, here and gone. Thank you very much. Report an error in the passage at 29:10

29:53 I Report an error in the passage at 29:53

30:21 did not have a question, but I can come up with one. I thought you had a question. Oh, I was pointing to you, but anyway, I do have a question. Thank you for sharing this. One thing that I am understanding, and I would like to know your opinion on it. Basically, there's a deep connection between nature and practice and nature and Buddha body. What I'm hearing may be that nature... Report an error in the passage at 30:21

30:48 Can you hold the mic a little closer? Yes. Could you hear me? Yes, now I can much better. Should I repeat? Would you? Yes. So my question is, I said thank you first. Pardon? Thank you for sharing this sūtra. You're welcome. And I would like to know your opinion on a thought that I had. What I am hearing is that there is a deep connection between nature and Buddha body and as Buddha body is our body. Report an error in the passage at 30:48

31:19 And our body. Yes, and nature and the human body. I haven't heard many texts in Zen about nature and the connection between nature and Zen. So I'm curious what are your thoughts? What's the connection between nature and Zen? Well, first of all, I think nature and Zen and Buddha body and Buddha mind, it's all the same. So the connection is intimate, and it's everything included. Report an error in the passage at 31:19

31:52 And I know for me, it's always been important, nature, if you will, to be out in it. I've spent time out in the oceans in kayaks and hiking in mountains and other places and various things out in nature, camping there and what have you. But nature for me is also walking down the street and seeing some blossoms, perhaps, and feeling the rain today. Report an error in the passage at 31:52

32:24 And then, oh, glorious, the rain stopped and the sun came out. That's all nature. So that all has to do with my Buddha body, my Buddha expression. And am I aware and present of it? No, not always, by any means. Fortunately, once in a while. And a bit more than what it used to be. So I think the connection's intimate and undeniable. It's there. It's up to us to recognize it. Report an error in the passage at 32:24

32:56 And like as Thich Nhat Hanh said, why are we so afraid of our body? We don't pay attention to our body while we're alive. Why don't we treat it well while we're here? Why do we worry about what happens when it dies? So I think this sūtra That's part of what it's saying. We are the same as the mountains. We are the same as the rivers. We walk, they walk, we talk, so do they. Report an error in the passage at 32:56

33:25 Thank you. I find it interesting that it's called human nature. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's one kind of nature. I mean, I don't think we can say nature, nature. Natural nature or wilderness nature. But yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 33:25

33:57 Hello, can you hear me? Hi. First of all, I just want to express my deepest sympathies for everything that you're going through right now. And I understand from some experience that these things are very, very difficult. I also want to say that your talk came at kind of the right time for me. I've been going through some stuff myself, and before walking in, I was just sitting outside and meditating and breathing. Report an error in the passage at 33:57

34:27 Well, the walking mountains and the streams talking made me, that little analogy just made me realize that, like, of course the mountain and I are not apart. We're one and the same, even though it's all the way over there and I'm all the way over here. It's, I guess what I'm saying is, it's like, how do you find Zen amidst the sadness, the anger? Report an error in the passage at 34:27

35:01 greed, anger, and delusion. Report an error in the passage at 35:01

35:05 Do you still go by Miguel? Yeah, I still do. Pardon? Yes, Miguel is mine. Okay, Miguel, good to see you. Thank you. I think it finds you in some ways. And as I kind of alluded to, for me in the midst of the Sashin, to first hear that my daughter-in-law was missing and then the next day that the Zendo burnt down, I somehow... Report an error in the passage at 35:05

35:36 I think because I practice and continue to practice on a daily basis and such, I was able to settle into the practice. And it didn't eliminate my grief or my anxiety, but I was able to be there, I think, more deeply than I usually am. And I was able to derive some comfort from that. And perhaps even more importantly, I was able to be more present and more comforting and more compassionate towards my son, my granddaughters and my daughter and my other son, you know, and things occurred to me that, oh, I ought to just text them about this or text them a little or call them or see them and hug them. Report an error in the passage at 35:36

36:30 And, you know, things that aren't totally normal for me arose, you know. Of their own, so to speak. But I think as a result of the fact that I have now a background in this practice of Zen and also of my recovery. But it's imperfect, for sure. Thank you. Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 36:30

37:16 Hello, my name is Lily. This is my first time here, and I'm learning. There's a lot that I don't know about, but a question that has come up in my mind in listening to all of this is, what about seeing ourselves as a part of nature? For example, sometimes I feel like I am wind, or I am different parts of nature, and for me, I kind of sort of See it as part of that oneness that we share, but what are your perspectives on us? Being or how we can or should we or yeah? Report an error in the passage at 37:16

38:00 What are your thoughts on seeing ourselves as also being a part of I'm envious of you being the wind I know I truthfully I am and I think that's wonderful, and that's very beautiful and Yes for me sometimes that occurs. I mean I know that I've Been laying in the sunshine or out somewhere and some days and it's just like, well, I'm part of this. I'm one with this. And I think that's true. Report an error in the passage at 38:00

38:27 We are. I think that's part of the truth, if you will, of this particular sūtra is that we are the same. In fact, Dogen says that. Someone quoted him saying that. So, yeah, don't lose that, please. Report an error in the passage at 38:27

38:46 And this is beginner's mind temple, and one should always maintain a beginner's mind. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 38:46

39:07 Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. Yeah, perfect. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. It's also my first time here, and I have a question about the stone woman giving birth. That picture is... Kind of very strange. I'm still having a little hard time hearing you. I have a question regarding the stone woman giving birth and how that relates to nature and that everything is changing. Report an error in the passage at 39:07

39:41 And the question about her is? I don't understand the picture. What it signifies, what it means. Well, what Dogen was saying, she represents the void or nothingness and how reality is created out of that. And we tend to think, no, it's created out of some cosmic what have you. It's created from there, from even something deep and dark in the middle of the night. Report an error in the passage at 39:41

40:07 or have you Report an error in the passage at 40:07

40:18 This is where all things can come from and do come from. Thank Report an error in the passage at 40:18

40:27 you. Report an error in the passage at 40:27

40:31 I mean, it's kind of strange. She's up singing or dancing one night and the next. I don't know if it's one night and the next night. She's very busy. Report an error in the passage at 40:31

40:47 Maybe that's part of the lesson. Keep active. Anyone Report an error in the passage at 40:47

41:03 else? We Report an error in the passage at 41:03

41:10 can get a little head start on bedtime. Because... Tomorrow, for those of you that live in the temple, is no longer interim. Right, director? Yeah, we're up back in that zendo. Time for 5.40 a.m. zazen. So please be there if you live here and practice there. If you don't live here, please practice your own zazen wherever for however long tomorrow. And when you do, be present, be open, and... Report an error in the passage at 41:10

41:47 Listen to what's coming to us from out there. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. Report an error in the passage at 41:47

42:10 For more information please visit sfzc.org and click giving. May we all fully enjoy the Dharma. Report an error in the passage at 42:10