Zen Gossip, Rumors, Speculation, and Idealization

0:00 This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Report an error in the passage at 0:00 Highlight the passage at 0:00

0:15 You know, I've considered this Green Gulch my home temple for so many years. During the 10 years I was in residence at all three centers, but mostly here. Report an error in the passage at 0:15 Highlight the passage at 0:15

0:30 Returning in anticipation of this talk and now entering this zendo with which I'm so intimately familiar, I just feel tremendous gratitude for all of the teachers and fellow Saṅgha members and good friends in the Dharma who I moved through this space with for so many years and many of whom who are no longer here. So I'm aware Report an error in the passage at 0:30 Highlight the passage at 0:30

1:01 also very much feel their presence. And there is this immense Manjushri, so familiar, always there, looking upon me. Report an error in the passage at 1:01 Highlight the passage at 1:01

1:19 You know, I was thinking when I came in, our eyes are cast down in this room often when we come here to sit Zazen. As I was recalling the faces of many people who I've practiced with, I could also see their feet. eat. Report an error in the passage at 1:19 Highlight the passage at 1:19

1:35 It's amazing the detail with which we can recall each other's feet. And I was thinking, oh, the amount of DNA in these floorboards. We all have our DNA here. How many thousands of people's DNA? It's a wonder these boards don't get up and start walking. Report an error in the passage at 1:35 Highlight the passage at 1:35

2:02 So as I was saying, I'm, like many of us, fortunate in many ways for... Being able to practice here both residentially and non-residentially and for the ways my teachers continued showing up as themselves completely giving me everything and nothing. Report an error in the passage at 2:02 Highlight the passage at 2:02

2:28 And everything is what? Lit sticks of incense, the daily schedule, instructions, forms for entering and exiting. And getting onto these seats on the tom, which is not so easy the first time, getting up and spinning around in these robes. And so many forms and ceremonies were imparted to me. Places of practice, as we say, work practice. Report an error in the passage at 2:28 Highlight the passage at 2:28

3:05 I worked in so many realms of this temple. In the kitchen, on the grounds, in the zendo, in the administrative offices. Report an error in the passage at 3:05 Highlight the passage at 3:05

3:17 These are all things that were... given to me to practice with here over the years. And as for nothing... I was offered things like... Report an error in the passage at 3:17 Highlight the passage at 3:17

3:31 teachings on impermanence. Report an error in the passage at 3:31 Highlight the passage at 3:31

3:39 face-to-face meeting. Report an error in the passage at 3:39 Highlight the passage at 3:39

3:43 intimacy and not knowing. Report an error in the passage at 3:43 Highlight the passage at 3:43

3:55 None of which can be gotten a hold of and this is what we mean, I think, often times by nothing. In Zen, no actual thing to grasp. Report an error in the passage at 3:55 Highlight the passage at 3:55

4:08 We are offered the whole universe to practice with and at the same time. given nothing really to hold on to, at least not for long. Welcome to those of you who have just arrived. A couple of familiar faces. Thank you for coming. A Report an error in the passage at 4:08 Highlight the passage at 4:08

4:32 few days ago, as I was thinking about giving Report an error in the passage at 4:32 Highlight the passage at 4:32

4:41 this talk here, I was thinking about the fact that there's a three-week Intensive, about to begin, and maybe some of you will be participating in that, and along with the intensive is a class titled It's Just a Story. Report an error in the passage at 4:41 Highlight the passage at 4:41

5:00 And as I was thinking about this, this kind of funny, I'll admit somewhat uncouth thought arose in my mind. I thought, ah, Zen gossip, rumors, speculation, and idealization. Report an error in the passage at 5:00 Highlight the passage at 5:00

5:18 And then I thought, well, that's funny. And curious and interesting. And then I thought, well, that's really good, actually. And I wondered then, well, what is the difference between gossip, rumors, speculation and idealization and Zen gossip, rumors, speculation and idealization? Report an error in the passage at 5:18 Highlight the passage at 5:18

5:47 And one of the answers that occurred to me was, well, in Zen, In the beginning, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. And in the middle, mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers. Report an error in the passage at 5:47 Highlight the passage at 5:47

6:06 And in the end, mountains are mountains again and rivers are rivers. Report an error in the passage at 6:06 Highlight the passage at 6:06

6:17 Do you get it? Report an error in the passage at 6:17 Highlight the passage at 6:17

6:22 Gossip, rumors, speculation, and idealization are really only mountains and rivers projected upon by the stories that we tell about them. Report an error in the passage at 6:22 Highlight the passage at 6:22

6:36 Likewise, you could say that gossip, rumors, speculation, and idealization are not really the mountains and rivers. They are the concepts that we project upon the inconceivable reality of mountains and rivers. So Report an error in the passage at 6:36 Highlight the passage at 6:36

6:58 what is this talk in Zen of mountains and rivers? Our Japanese Soto Zen founder, Ehe Dogen, wrote a sūtra called The Mountains and Rivers. An essay that he titled The Mountains and Rivers Sūtra. Report an error in the passage at 6:58 Highlight the passage at 6:58

7:17 What do they represent or convey? You could say they represent our everyday life, the context in which we enjoy our everyday rice and tea or oatmeal and coffee. Report an error in the passage at 7:17 Highlight the passage at 7:17

7:39 You could say they represent the way things actually are prior Report an error in the passage at 7:39 Highlight the passage at 7:39

7:47 to the stories that we tell to try to pin everything down and to know it. Report an error in the passage at 7:47 Highlight the passage at 7:47

7:55 These are the stories that when believed determine the way that we relate to actual mountains and rivers. In Zen we say the mountains are rivers and rivers are the Buddha body. Report an error in the passage at 7:55 Highlight the passage at 7:55

8:10 And we say that they also don't exist outside the mind. And we say that the truth, the suchness of mountains and rivers cannot be grasped or conceived by the mind. Report an error in the passage at 8:10 Highlight the passage at 8:10

8:32 So again these are all concepts of Mountains and rivers, the images they call forth, and the conceivable stories that we tell about our inconceivable everyday life. Report an error in the passage at 8:32 Highlight the passage at 8:32

8:51 I'd like to return to something that I just touched on briefly in the beginning, which is being oneself completely, as demonstrated by my teachers and so many of the ancestors in this Soto Zen lineage. Report an error in the passage at 8:51 Highlight the passage at 8:51

9:08 Being oneself completely without pretense. And also at times skillfully with pretense. Everything is included in what is complete without pretense and with pretense. Report an error in the passage at 9:08 Highlight the passage at 9:08

9:30 So what does it mean this being oneself completely which is what Suzuki Roshi encouraged? What does it imply? Report an error in the passage at 9:30 Highlight the passage at 9:30

9:41 In recent months I've been giving a lot of thought to really deeply contemplating interdependence. Report an error in the passage at 9:41 Highlight the passage at 9:41

9:52 also often refer to as dependent origination or dependent co-arising. Report an error in the passage at 9:52 Highlight the passage at 9:52

10:10 I think sometimes interdependency, interbeing. And I'll just take a few moments. This part might be. a little dry for some of you, but I think it is. Report an error in the passage at 10:10 Highlight the passage at 10:10

10:24 Important for those of you who are hearing these terms for the first time, they're often used interchangeably. Interdependence, codependent, dependent co-arising, dependent origination, emptiness. But I'd like to take a few minutes to talk about how they're different as well as the same. Report an error in the passage at 10:24 Highlight the passage at 10:24

10:45 Dependent origination is the term that was used in early Buddhism in the Pāli Canon. And there it emphasized the causal conditions that lead to birth and death, suffering and the cessation of suffering. Report an error in the passage at 10:45 Highlight the passage at 10:45

11:03 And dependent co-arising is a term that shows up more in English translations of Mahāyāna teachings, including Zen. And it tends to emphasize mutuality of causal conditions. So rather than a kind of one-directional linear chain of events, Rather than A causes B, it's more like A and B arise together, or AB arises, like a kind of co-emergence. Report an error in the passage at 11:03 Highlight the passage at 11:03

11:40 And the term emptiness, which in Sanskrit is sunyata, arose in the Mahāyāna tradition in certain schools, including Zen, in a way that emphasized the absence of inherent existence, or absence of fixed self-nature. And lastly, interdependence or interdependency or interbeing. These are all more modern Western terms that are used in the context of Zen and that were popularized, I think, by Thich Nhat Hanh and others who were dedicated to engaged Buddhism. Report an error in the passage at 11:40 Highlight the passage at 11:40

12:22 And I would say that the emphasis of these terms added to the mix. compassion and responsible relationality awareness of social and environmental implications of the Buddhist teachings and accountability and mutual reliance within worldly systems and structures so not just ways of talking about ultimate reality all Report an error in the passage at 12:22 Highlight the passage at 12:22

12:52 of that's just a brief overview of how these terms are used variously and at the same time they share The same fundamental understanding of non-separation and the way things, plural, actually are singular. Report an error in the passage at 12:52 Highlight the passage at 12:52

13:13 So I want to return to being oneself completely in light of interdependence or emptiness, which is probably the word I'll use the most for the remainder of this talk. Report an error in the passage at 13:13 Highlight the passage at 13:13

13:29 This morning I'd like to suggest that this being oneself completely has a lot to do with understanding. Understanding, recognizing, experientially, practicing and studying in ways that help us to become conscious of the fact that we are always telling stories to ourselves and to others, stories about the way things are. Report an error in the passage at 13:29 Highlight the passage at 13:29

13:58 And in so doing, our minds are often habitually covering the way things actually are, which provides a basis for things such as. Report an error in the passage at 13:58 Highlight the passage at 13:58

14:15 use somewhat playfully. But also I want to say, as you know, these things are rampant in our world. And so swiftly and voluminously generated and disseminated and uploaded through online media sources with the aid of modern technology. Report an error in the passage at 14:15 Highlight the passage at 14:15

14:42 Even without modern technology, we have these tendencies. We have our ancient technology, which is the human brain, body, consciousness. We have been doing this for millennia. Report an error in the passage at 14:42 Highlight the passage at 14:42

15:09 We also use our minds, these technologies, in ways that bring a lot of benefit to the world, obviously. But we create a lot of suffering. Report an error in the passage at 15:09 Highlight the passage at 15:09

15:22 That brings us to practices like Zen with the question, how can I be free of this suffering and help others to be free? Report an error in the passage at 15:22 Highlight the passage at 15:22

15:35 So first, perhaps by becoming conscious of the nature of stories and of being storytellers for better and for worse. Secondly, having a practice in which we can look at this, just look at the mind and the body and the mind's creation and the felt sense. In Zen, we call this looking zazen, sitting silent and still with our senses open, simply aware of what's arising without trying to get a hold of or push away, add to or subtract from. Report an error in the passage at 15:35 Highlight the passage at 15:35

16:20 We call this practice just sitting. Sometimes we say doing nothing, and sometimes it is talked about descriptively as thinking not thinking. With awareness or attention to posture and breathing. So Report an error in the passage at 16:20 Highlight the passage at 16:20

16:42 we have self-reflection and zazen, and we also have teachings passed on by wise and compassionate teachers who dedicated their lives to realizing the way things actually are, to actualizing their realizations for the benefit of others, for us. Report an error in the passage at 16:42 Highlight the passage at 16:42

17:06 And for all the beings that our lives can and do reach. And one of the foundational teachings that they have passed down to us is the teaching of emptiness or dependent co-rising. Report an error in the passage at 17:06 Highlight the passage at 17:06

17:25 This morning I'm suggesting that the fullness or the form dimension of emptiness is complete and Report an error in the passage at 17:25 Highlight the passage at 17:25

17:39 is actualized by being oneself completely in faith that Buddha nature is our nature. Report an error in the passage at 17:39 Highlight the passage at 17:39

17:51 In preparation for this talk I was reviewing some of Suzuki Roshi's many teachings on emptiness and I came across something very interesting to me, something that struck me as quite advanced and profound actually in Zen mind, beginner's mind. Report an error in the passage at 17:51 Highlight the passage at 17:51

18:09 And I was struck not just by the teaching but by the fact that I had never consciously Seeing this, though I have read Zen Mind Beginner's Mind many times over the years, I thought, oh, what a wonderful example of how the Zen teachings are hidden in plain sight. Report an error in the passage at 18:09 Highlight the passage at 18:09

18:29 We can't see them or hear them so long as our eye or ear of practice cannot reach them. To quote Dogen, he wrote in his essay, The Genjo Koan, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. Report an error in the passage at 18:29 Highlight the passage at 18:29

18:49 So you might say over time the aperture of our practice widens and the lens becomes clearer, enabling us to see more, to see more clearly. Report an error in the passage at 18:49 Highlight the passage at 18:49

19:00 So this lecture of Suzuki Roshi's, which I suddenly was able to see and hear in a way that I never had before, is called, titled in the book, Constancy. Report an error in the passage at 19:00 Highlight the passage at 19:00

19:14 And in it he refers quite a bit to emptiness. And he used what I think is a really brilliant metaphor that can also be understood literally. He said, quote, the sky is never surprised when all of a sudden a thunderbolt breaks through. Report an error in the passage at 19:14 Highlight the passage at 19:14

19:34 And then when the lightning follows and one is simply aware of this wonderful sight to be seen. He goes on to say that similarly, and I'm paraphrasing, when the attention of the mind is resting, In the truth of emptiness, it is never surprised by the thunder or lightning. How is that? Report an error in the passage at 19:34 Highlight the passage at 19:34

20:05 I don't know how, but for those of you who sat in this zendo or in another zendo elsewhere in some other dwelling on a windy morning before the sun has risen with the inside of the zendo very dimly lit, you may have noticed on one or more occasions that when a heavy Report an error in the passage at 20:05 Highlight the passage at 20:05

20:28 Large pine cone suddenly drops and hits the roof at, say, 5.30 a.m., and your mind in that moment was not thinking something in particular, and so that thought wasn't suddenly shattered by the sound of that pine cone striking emptiness. Report an error in the passage at 20:28 Highlight the passage at 20:28

20:51 You didn't startle or generate any thoughts about it, although perhaps immediately after you thought, pine cone. Or you had some profound insight that wasn't exactly a proliferation of thought. Report an error in the passage at 20:51 Highlight the passage at 20:51

21:16 Mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. Report an error in the passage at 21:16 Highlight the passage at 21:16

21:22 maybe at that time when the pine If someone asks you later, Did you hear that this morning? You think, ah, yes, I did hear that. But between hearing it and being asked, you had forgotten. Report an error in the passage at 21:22 Highlight the passage at 21:22

21:52 But it left a trace, and that trace allowed for the arising of the memory. Ah, yes. Report an error in the passage at 21:52 Highlight the passage at 21:52

22:02 To return to Suzuki Roshi's lecture, later in the talk, he refers to emptiness descriptively and again metaphorically as the utter darkness of the sky. Report an error in the passage at 22:02 Highlight the passage at 22:02

22:17 He brings it up in the context of saying that he as a Japanese man in the U.S. is eating American food and doing his best to speak American English as a non-native English speaker and wanting to understand English speakers. He says, I may understand you better than anyone who can speak and understand English. This is true, he says. Report an error in the passage at 22:17 Highlight the passage at 22:17

22:45 Even if I could not understand English, And then he uses this reference to utter darkness. He says, There is always a possibility of understanding as long as we exist in the utter darkness of the sky, as long as we live in emptiness, as long as we live in that darkness. What does that darkness refer to? He continues, I have always said that you must be very patient if you want to understand Buddhism. But I have been seeking for a better word than patience. Report an error in the passage at 22:45 Highlight the passage at 22:45

23:31 The usual translation of the Japanese word nin is patience. But perhaps constancy is a better word. You must force yourself to be patient, he says. But in constancy, there is no particular effort involved. There is only the unchanging ability to accept things as they are. For people who have no idea of emptiness, this ability may appear to be patience, but patience can actually be non-acceptance. Report an error in the passage at 23:31 Highlight the passage at 23:31

24:10 People who know, even if only intuitively, the state of emptiness always have open the possibility of accepting things as they are. Report an error in the passage at 24:10 Highlight the passage at 24:10

24:24 A little later in the same passage. He says, the sky is always the sky. Even though the clouds and lightning come, the sky is not disturbed. Even though pine cones strike the roof in the dimly lit zendo in the wee hours of the morning, surrounded by utter darkness, the sky, vast emptiness, is not disturbed. Report an error in the passage at 24:24 Highlight the passage at 24:24

24:51 He continues, even if the flashing of enlightenment comes, our practice forgets all about it. Then it, our practice, is ready for another enlightenment or another pine cone. And finally, he says, this is what is called enlightenment before you attain it and after you attain it. Report an error in the passage at 24:51 Highlight the passage at 24:51

25:19 In other words, now, right now. Report an error in the passage at 25:19 Highlight the passage at 25:19

25:27 This is quite advanced teaching, I think, in Zen mind, beginner's mind, but maybe that's just because I'm a beginner. And because I think, Maybe some of you are also beginners. I want to look a little bit more closely at some of what he's saying here, at least around the edges. And while doing so, continue considering, at least in the background, how this relates to being oneself completely. Report an error in the passage at 25:27 Highlight the passage at 25:27

26:04 So he begins this passage, or this part of his dharma talk. By saying that he is looking for some word other than patience to refer to what he thinks one needs in order to understand Buddhism. Report an error in the passage at 26:04 Highlight the passage at 26:04

26:19 And he shares with us his reason, which is that he thinks the word patience, or nin in Japanese, tends to suggest a kind of willful or forceful effort, some restraint perhaps. Report an error in the passage at 26:19 Highlight the passage at 26:19

26:38 And I had this kind of funny example. I thought it was a little bit humorous and also quite... can all relate to it. I thought, oh, like when we're sitting in traffic. Report an error in the passage at 26:38 Highlight the passage at 26:38

26:51 behind another car and the light turns green and the person in front of us is on their phone so they didn't notice that the light changed. Report an error in the passage at 26:51 Highlight the passage at 26:51

26:59 and there's this sort of restraint that we have to have for a few seconds to keep from honking on the horn, particularly when the person behind us has started honking at us, apparently. For not honking at the person in front of us to relieve the universe of this tension. So this whole situation can take some restraint and is not necessarily acceptance of what is happening. Report an error in the passage at 26:59 Highlight the passage at 26:59

27:31 Suzuki Roshi went on to say, constancy is a better word because in constancy, as he means it, there is no particular effort involved. Report an error in the passage at 27:31 Highlight the passage at 27:31

27:43 There is only the unchanging ability to accept things as they are. Sounds like zazen, this constancy, this acceptance of the way things are, of whatever is arising in the field of awareness. Report an error in the passage at 27:43 Highlight the passage at 27:43

28:09 And in the next sentence, he seems to be equating constancy with emptiness. He says, for some people who have no idea of emptiness, this ability, constancy, may appear to be patience. Report an error in the passage at 28:09 Highlight the passage at 28:09

28:24 But patience can actually be non-acceptance. So this constancy is either being used as a word for emptiness or to refer to a practice grounded in an understanding of emptiness, which lends itself to a state of acceptance. He Report an error in the passage at 28:24 Highlight the passage at 28:24

28:54 says people who know, even if only intuitively, the state of emptiness... Always have open the possibility of accepting things as they are. What is it about this emptiness that makes this possible, this acceptance? Report an error in the passage at 28:54 Highlight the passage at 28:54

29:14 Perhaps it is a quality of openness. Perhaps it is an unhindered inclusion of everything that is arising in awareness. Report an error in the passage at 29:14 Highlight the passage at 29:14

29:34 Earlier I said that my understanding of the ability to be oneself completely is related to emptiness. And now I see it's also related to or equated with acceptance. Report an error in the passage at 29:34 Highlight the passage at 29:34

29:52 Acceptance of oneself, acceptance of others, but only total acceptance. Emptiness is total acceptance as different than partial acceptance. Report an error in the passage at 29:52 Highlight the passage at 29:52

30:11 What we like, what we're comfortable with, what we agree with. I'm Report an error in the passage at 30:11 Highlight the passage at 30:11

30:38 pausing now because I'm tempted to go off script. And I tell myself before coming into these talks, don't go off script. Report an error in the passage at 30:38 Highlight the passage at 30:38

30:49 It Report an error in the passage at 30:49 Highlight the passage at 30:49

31:07 occurs to me that the ability to be oneself completely is dependent upon what in Zen we call practice realization. Not just intellectual understanding, but something much more embodied. ...than mere intellectual reasoning, something realized, made real, or actualized. Moment after moment in our everyday activities, not only on our cushions, in our meditation seats, we can notice as an intentional practice that the myriad things, innumerable things, beings, appearances are coming forth, are occurring, and all together... Report an error in the passage at 31:07 Highlight the passage at 31:07

31:55 Bringing about my own self experience. That is the only self experience. And we are equally participating in this coming forth and bringing forth to the arising of other people's experiences who are in turn giving their experiences back to us without end. Report an error in the passage at 31:55 Highlight the passage at 31:55

32:21 When this coming forth of myriad things to manifest myself is realized, then emptiness and non-separation is realized. Report an error in the passage at 32:21 Highlight the passage at 32:21

32:40 Dogen wrote, who would take wasteful delight in the spark from the Flintstone? Form and substance are like dew on the grass, destiny like the dart of lightning, emptied in an instant, vanished in a flash. He wrote that 1,000 years approximately after the Diamond Sūtra was written. And in the Diamond Sūtra, it says, all conditioned phenomena. Report an error in the passage at 32:40 Highlight the passage at 32:40

33:12 phenomena are like dew or a flash of lightning. Report an error in the passage at 33:12 Highlight the passage at 33:12

33:20 Dogen went on in his version, in his essay translated, Guidelines for Seated Meditation. Please, honored followers of Zen long accustomed to groping for the elephant, for very partial knowledge based on limited perceptions, perspectives, fixed views. Report an error in the passage at 33:20 Highlight the passage at 33:20

33:51 Do not be suspicious of the true dragon, the whole dragon. Report an error in the passage at 33:51 Highlight the passage at 33:51

34:01 Concentrate your efforts single-mindedly, he wrote, on this fundamental truth, on realizing this ultimate teaching of emptiness, constancy, completeness. I'd Report an error in the passage at 34:01 Highlight the passage at 34:01

34:21 like to end my talk with Suzuki Roshi's words. He said, Buddha's teaching is everywhere. In the mountains and the rivers. He said, today it is raining. Report an error in the passage at 34:21 Highlight the passage at 34:21

34:41 This is Buddha's teaching. People think their own way or their own religious understanding is Buddha's way without knowing what they are hearing or what they are doing or where they are. Report an error in the passage at 34:41 Highlight the passage at 34:41

34:57 Religion is not any particular teaching. Religion is everywhere. We have to understand our teaching in this way. Teaching is in each moment, in every existence. Report an error in the passage at 34:57 Highlight the passage at 34:57

35:14 That is the true teaching. Report an error in the passage at 35:14 Highlight the passage at 35:14

35:19 That was said in a talk that was later titled, Right Understanding. Thank Report an error in the passage at 35:19 Highlight the passage at 35:19

35:31 you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the dharma. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the dharma. Report an error in the passage at 35:31 Highlight the passage at 35:31