A Non-Buddhist Questions the Buddha

0:00 This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Report an error in the passage at 0:00 Highlight the passage at 0:00

0:16 Good morning, dear ones. You know, it's always wonderful for me to be here at Green Gulch because I have two responses to coming into a crowded room. And starting a talk. One is abject terror, and the other is just love and familiarity with this room, the practice, and this thing that we do together. Report an error in the passage at 0:16 Highlight the passage at 0:16

0:50 So, just for your information, as an aside, fear in Buddhism, there's five fears. Report an error in the passage at 0:50 Highlight the passage at 0:50

1:04 One of them is speaking before an assembly. It's right there lined up with death, insanity, losing one's income for one's children, injury, sickness, the whole nine yards, and then there's speaking in front of an assembly. Report an error in the passage at 1:04 Highlight the passage at 1:04

1:30 So if you are afflicted with this, you totally understand. If you're not, you probably don't get it. Report an error in the passage at 1:30 Highlight the passage at 1:30

1:39 You know, the first part of my talk, I was planning to address the children because it's family day, isn't it? So where are the kids? Well, we can all be kids. Report an error in the passage at 1:39 Highlight the passage at 1:39

2:01 I'll just... Tell you what I was going to tell them. Report an error in the passage at 2:01 Highlight the passage at 2:01

2:10 It's so good to be alive in a human body. In meditation practice we take good care of our human body. Now, this was going to work well with the kids, but I'll skip over it. A couple of months ago I fell on my face while running and hurt myself. My eyes turned black and purple and magenta, and my nose hurt for about a month. Report an error in the passage at 2:10 Highlight the passage at 2:10

2:39 and I was going to ask the kids to share occasions when they have been hurt and who would help them. So we'll move on. to, in meditation practice, we take good care of ourselves. So let's do a few minutes of meditation together. Meditation is a way of taking good care of our body by giving ourselves a warm hug. Report an error in the passage at 2:39 Highlight the passage at 2:39

3:12 We can meditate when we're happy or sad or hurt or angry. And we can meditate anywhere, no matter what we're doing. This is because meditation is simply breathing in the air of the earth's atmosphere, breathing out, falling into the earth by the earth's gravity. Report an error in the passage at 3:12 Highlight the passage at 3:12

3:44 In meditation, we breathe in and out this way without moving much, just feeling the fresh air entering our bodies. Feeling the generous earth holding us as we let go, ready for a new breath, ready for a new breath of fresh air. Report an error in the passage at 3:44 Highlight the passage at 3:44

4:12 We can feel the breath in our nose, our throat, our chest, down to our belly as it nourishes our body with oxygen. Report an error in the passage at 4:12 Highlight the passage at 4:12

4:50 Releasing breath, we give back carbon dioxide which nourishes the plants. Meanwhile, plants are breathing in carbon dioxide and breathing out oxygen, sort of. Plants and animals are partners in creating the Earth's atmosphere and there are many, many other partners too. Report an error in the passage at 4:50 Highlight the passage at 4:50

5:16 Half of the oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere is produced by many teensy-weensy creatures called phytoplankton. They live in the ocean. Half of our Earth's oxygen. Report an error in the passage at 5:16 Highlight the passage at 5:16

5:34 Some of the air we breathe comes from far away. Some of the air we breathe comes from the bodies of people and other animals right around us. We share the earth's atmosphere, just like we all share wanting to be happy. So let's sit for a couple of minutes this way. Thank Report an error in the passage at 5:34 Highlight the passage at 5:34

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6:51 you. Report an error in the passage at 6:51 Highlight the passage at 6:51

6:56 Today I'd like to talk to you about a story from the Muang Khan. It's a koan collection. This is case number 32. And it goes like this. A non-Buddhist philosopher questions the Buddha. Report an error in the passage at 6:56 Highlight the passage at 6:56

7:17 A non-Buddhist once asked the World Honored One, I do not ask for words, nor do I ask for no words. The World Honored One remained seated. The non-Buddhist praised him, saying, The great compassion of the World Honored One has dispelled the clouds of my ignorance and enabled me to be enlightened. I'm going to read that part again. Report an error in the passage at 7:17 Highlight the passage at 7:17

7:49 A non-Buddhist once asked the world-honored one, I do not ask for words, nor do I ask for no words. The world-honored one remained seated. The non-Buddhist praised him. Report an error in the passage at 7:49 Highlight the passage at 7:49

8:07 Saying, the great compassion of the world-honored one has dispelled the clouds of my ignorance and enabled me to be enlightened. Report an error in the passage at 8:07 Highlight the passage at 8:07

8:20 Making a bow of gratitude, he departed. Ananda, who is at Buddha's side, then asked Buddha, what realization did the non-Buddhist have that made him praise you like that? He said, what realization did the non-Buddhist have that made him praise you like that? Report an error in the passage at 8:20 Highlight the passage at 8:20

8:42 The world-honored one replied, he is like a high-mettled horse which starts at even the shadow of the whip. A high-mettled horse that starts at even the shadow of a whip. So that's from the Gateless Burial, the Mumonkan. I used Zenkei Shibuyama's work, his translation. Shibuyama Roshi was an important Rinzai Zen teacher. Report an error in the passage at 8:42 Highlight the passage at 8:42

9:14 In the 20th century, he was born in 1894 and he died in 1974. Report an error in the passage at 9:14 Highlight the passage at 9:14

9:23 So I grew up by the ocean. I've been a scuba diver for many years and I had a long career teaching school in Mill Valley, especially marine biology to 7th graders. So I tend to read Zen stories with the ocean in mind. Fact is, I tend to do everything with the ocean in mind. Report an error in the passage at 9:23 Highlight the passage at 9:23

9:48 But I approach a Zen story like this as I would approach a tide pool at low tide. By the way, today is a full moon. Not only that, it's a blue moon. We haven't had a blue moon for a while. In case you don't know, blue moon is when there's two full moons in the same month, and it pretty much has to happen when the full moon falls on the first day of the month, and then it can't happen in February, more or less. Report an error in the passage at 9:48 Highlight the passage at 9:48

10:22 So anyway, it's a blue moon. Take a look. It's not blue or anything. Report an error in the passage at 10:22 Highlight the passage at 10:22

10:32 So back to the tide pool. I want to take a look at this story the way I would look at a tide pool at low tide. I know there are many beings, some living, some recently living or soon to be living here, some what we call non-living, like the water and the stones. Some are known, many are unknown. Report an error in the passage at 10:32 Highlight the passage at 10:32

10:57 So let me see what there is here today, what there is to learn. The first thing to do when approaching a tide pool is to stay still and quiet, because this allows the animals to return to what they were doing before I arrived. They are fully aware of my presence, my footsteps, the shadow I cast, my smell, and my sounds. Report an error in the passage at 10:57 Highlight the passage at 10:57

11:27 They'll get used to me in a few minutes and just go about their business. So first of all, I'm curious about this non-Buddhist. He seems to be a man, but the story doesn't feature that point. Report an error in the passage at 11:27 Highlight the passage at 11:27

11:44 Why did he come to meet the Buddha? Maybe he had heard about Buddha's teachings and being a seeker himself, wanted to speak with him. Report an error in the passage at 11:44 Highlight the passage at 11:44

11:54 His question was careful and intentional. That is, it indicates to me that he put a lot of thought and consideration into his statement. I do not ask for words. I do not ask for no words. Or maybe he traveled from teacher to teacher asking each one the same question. Report an error in the passage at 11:54 Highlight the passage at 11:54

12:17 But we don't know that. We only have the encounter between the non-Buddhist and the Buddha followed by the conversation between Ananda and Buddha to work with. So let's work from there. Report an error in the passage at 12:17 Highlight the passage at 12:17

12:34 The non-Buddhist seems to know that the way is not to be found in words. nor in refraining from words. Report an error in the passage at 12:34 Highlight the passage at 12:34

12:47 In other words, he seems to be stymied by duality. Report an error in the passage at 12:47 Highlight the passage at 12:47

13:03 Raise your hand if you've ever been stymied by duality. Report an error in the passage at 13:03 Highlight the passage at 13:03

13:13 You know, these koans are so beautiful because, you know, they are... Sort of about historical conversations, although we have hardly any way to verify that because they're very old. This one, I don't know when this one was written, but most of the koans were collected in Tang Dynasty China, which means 700 to 900 AD, a long time ago. Report an error in the passage at 13:13 Highlight the passage at 13:13

13:40 So it's kind of like, I don't remember when Beowulf was written, but it's like the same ballpark. What? So... So, duality, stymied by duality. Buddha offered his quiet presence, his human body resting on the earth, breathing in and breathing out, just doing zazen. In this way, Buddha directly expressed refrain from avoiding duality as well as refrain from engaging duality. Report an error in the passage at 13:40 Highlight the passage at 13:40

14:25 This is really helpful and sound meditation instruction for us. when duality arises in our meditation practice, we return to full presence. Report an error in the passage at 14:25 Highlight the passage at 14:25

14:38 Without excluding or including duality, we simply sit quietly breathing because bearing witness to life itself, bearing witness to life as it is in that moment. Report an error in the passage at 14:38 Highlight the passage at 14:38

14:56 No need just now. For comparisons, analysis, understanding, or words. As images and thoughts arise, we allow them without engaging them. Report an error in the passage at 14:56 Highlight the passage at 14:56

15:14 We allow them their own time, their own rhythm, their own intensity, without engaging them. This is how Buddha responds to the non-Buddhist visitor, just like Zazen. Report an error in the passage at 15:14 Highlight the passage at 15:14

15:31 In this way, he shows the visitor and the visitor witnesses that even raising the question about words, no words, action, restraint from action, is included and already accounted for in the practice of zazen. It's already accounted for and fully included. Report an error in the passage at 15:31 Highlight the passage at 15:31

16:03 In zazen practice, everything is welcome, witnessed. witnessed, even appreciated, yet without interaction. not as an object, rather as the taste of this one and only moment, without judgment, without seeking. This reminds me of Walt Whitman's famous line from Walt Whitman's famous poem, Do I Contradict Myself? Report an error in the passage at 16:03 Highlight the passage at 16:03

16:41 Very well, then I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes. He has that same beautiful sense of we're not here to clean the place up exactly, sort of, but we're not trying to get rid of anything here. Report an error in the passage at 16:41 Highlight the passage at 16:41

17:01 How do we do this? When I sit, sometimes I'm agitated, maybe about an event that occurred or one that it is to occur. Or might occur or even could never occur. Or even if I'm not agitated, maybe just preoccupied with whatever. Report an error in the passage at 17:01 Highlight the passage at 17:01

17:22 I sometimes bring to mind the image of my belly as grandmother's lap. Grandmother has a big, soft lap. And she has many grandchildren. All are welcome to climb into her lap. The squirmy ones, the weeping ones, the fighting ones. And the little angels. All are welcome to come and go from her lap. All are loved. Report an error in the passage at 17:22 Highlight the passage at 17:22

17:57 Grandma doesn't get involved with their complaints, their stories, their arguments, because she can't hear very well. And her eyes aren't so good either. Report an error in the passage at 17:57 Highlight the passage at 17:57

18:11 Sometimes they all leave and she sits content in solitude and silence. Later they might return, one at a time or two or the whole lot of them. Report an error in the passage at 18:11 Highlight the passage at 18:11

18:25 Either way, alone or in the company of her grandchildren is fine with grandma. She just sits right here, loving and accepting everyone, everything, as well as no one and nothing in her warm lap. Report an error in the passage at 18:25 Highlight the passage at 18:25

19:05 This is the image that comes to my mind when I read this koan. Buddha sits quietly, accepting whatever comes his way, expressing no preference, And not excluding any person, their language, not their behavior. In this way, he sees the whole person. He understands and accepts that person. Through Buddha's accepting eyes, that non-Buddhist man had the possibility of seeing himself, unembellished, either by words or understanding, or by refraining from that. Report an error in the passage at 19:05 Highlight the passage at 19:05

19:59 Now this person is described as a non-Buddhist. The commentaries speculate about who he is and where he came from. In that time, maybe it was important to identify with a group, a teacher, or a religious belief. For us in our time, Buddhist or non-Buddhist identity means very little. Those of us who are ordained call ourselves Buddhist, but when I'm in the company of a so-called non-Buddhist, The affiliation isn't that relevant. Since Buddhism is fairly new to us, it does not place us in a group or give us an identity that has much bearing in our daily lives outside of Saṅgha relationships. Report an error in the passage at 19:59 Highlight the passage at 19:59

20:51 And certainly it has great bearing in a residential community such as Green Gulch Farm. And it's even a matter of study. Report an error in the passage at 20:51 Highlight the passage at 20:51

21:05 relationships, these kinds of relationships. Report an error in the passage at 21:05 Highlight the passage at 21:05

21:10 But I think all of us share. Report an error in the passage at 21:10 Highlight the passage at 21:10

21:15 I feel a strong sense of generosity and appreciation between the non-Buddhist and the Buddhist. When Buddha offers his full presence without the limitation of language, the non-Buddhist understands his offering. And expresses deep gratitude. Report an error in the passage at 21:15 Highlight the passage at 21:15

21:44 Later, Ananda asks Buddha the simple question, innocent and fresh, what did this person understand that led him to praise you in that way? Report an error in the passage at 21:44 Highlight the passage at 21:44

21:57 Buddha answers Ananda, he's like a high-medaled horse which starts at even the shadow of the whip. Report an error in the passage at 21:57 Highlight the passage at 21:57

22:13 This refers to a story liking people to four kinds of horses. From the Samyukta Agama Sūtra, illustrating four natures of human capacity. They are the best horse who starts moving when it sees the shadow of the whip. Report an error in the passage at 22:13 Highlight the passage at 22:13

22:36 The good horse who moves when it feels the whip brushing its skin and hairs on its back. The poor horse who moves when it feels the pain of the whip. Report an error in the passage at 22:36 Highlight the passage at 22:36

22:51 And finally, the really bad horse. Who moves when the pain of the whip penetrates its bones. Suzuki Roshi famously said that the really bad horse is the best Zen student. Report an error in the passage at 22:51 Highlight the passage at 22:51

23:10 Because that person doesn't give up on practice when it is difficult. This is the Zen practitioner who loves Zen, is in it for their whole life. It's like a mother's love. Never giving up on one's child, no matter how difficult. Most commentaries see Ananda as the really bad horse. Report an error in the passage at 23:10 Highlight the passage at 23:10

23:39 This subtle drama between the non-Buddhist and Buddha has unfolded before him, and by his straightforward, innocent question, he seems not to have understood. Report an error in the passage at 23:39 Highlight the passage at 23:39

23:52 Yet, it is from his simple question that we learn how Buddha experienced the encounter. Maybe the non-Buddhist was awakened by his encounter with Buddha. Yet never returned to take up the practice. We don't know. But we do know that Ananda stayed close to Buddha his whole life, supposedly never awakening until after Buddha's death. Report an error in the passage at 23:52 Highlight the passage at 23:52

24:23 Yet, everything we have, everything we know of Buddha's words and teachings is because of Ananda's extraordinary memory and his dogged commitment. Report an error in the passage at 24:23 Highlight the passage at 24:23

24:37 He memorized all the teachings. When I look at Ananda's simple question to Buddha, what realization did the non-Buddhist have that made him praise you like that? I'm reminded of Ananda's simple question to Buddha on behalf of Mahapajapati, the Buddha's aunt and stepmother, who asked Buddha for women to be able to ordain in the Buddhist order. Report an error in the passage at 24:37 Highlight the passage at 24:37

25:10 Mahapajapati, along with hundreds of women, walked for days to where the Buddha was staying to ask him for ordination. Buddha turned them down twice until Ananda asked Buddha the simple question, are women able to achieve the same enlightenment as men? Report an error in the passage at 25:10 Highlight the passage at 25:10

25:35 Buddha said, yes, of course. And that opened the door for thousands of years of women ordaining. We also know there is much work to be done in that area. Report an error in the passage at 25:35 Highlight the passage at 25:35

25:52 In this way, we can feel tenderness and gratitude for everyone in Buddhist history, including Buddhists, non-Buddhists, Earth's atmosphere and gravity, so-called living and non-living beings throughout time. All the sutras, the commentaries, the stories, the teachings in the long history of Buddhism have been shared by some sort of horse. Report an error in the passage at 25:52 Highlight the passage at 25:52

26:26 The gifted and talented ones, the steady never giving up ones, the workhorses, and the troubled Just like the grandchildren in grandma's lap, nothing and nobody is extra. Everyone is welcome. Everyone is needed. To bring the Buddhist teaching to life and to share it through the generations. Report an error in the passage at 26:26 Highlight the passage at 26:26

26:57 That is my very short talk for today. I suspect we have time for questions and discussion. Report an error in the passage at 26:57 Highlight the passage at 26:57

27:24 Don't be shy. You know what you could do is put your hand up first and then think of a question. Report an error in the passage at 27:24 Highlight the passage at 27:24

27:50 I sometimes tell my people that I talk to, when we speak in a Zen... in a Zen setting we don't plan what we're going to say we don't think about it much we just open our mouth and start to sing like a bird and we will be as surprised by what comes out as anyone else it's a wonderful practice it's a little scary Report an error in the passage at 27:50 Highlight the passage at 27:50

28:19 Thank you for your talk. You're welcome. I wonder if you could share more about not running towards and not running away. Report an error in the passage at 28:19 Highlight the passage at 28:19

28:34 The thing is, learn how to stop running. We tend to throw our attention on the object. Do you know what I mean? Like, of course I'm going to run away if there is a mountain lion in front of me. No, you shouldn't do that. You should definitely not run away if there's a mountain lion in front of you. But if there's something in front of me, I'm definitely going to run away. But forget the object. Report an error in the passage at 28:34 Highlight the passage at 28:34

29:01 just Enter the running away, not running away, the activity of running away, and find some quiet. How about not running away? How about staying right here? Could you say more about what you wonder? Report an error in the passage at 29:01 Highlight the passage at 29:01

29:26 Yeah, I guess I was thinking about in sitting meditation, but also just in daily life practice, I Report an error in the passage at 29:26 Highlight the passage at 29:26

29:42 guess I really like that instruction in a way. It feels like something good to remember or to come back to. Report an error in the passage at 29:42 Highlight the passage at 29:42

29:55 And it's kind of paradoxical and interesting. Yeah, it is. Report an error in the passage at 29:55 Highlight the passage at 29:55

30:03 Meditation is kind of like a muscle that we've never exercised before if we are just learning it. To learn how to not think. It's a... Report an error in the passage at 30:03 Highlight the passage at 30:03

30:13 And to learn how to do that without having this bully inside us punch down the thoughts and think that that's going to get rid of them, you know, because the bully is just another thought. Report an error in the passage at 30:13 Highlight the passage at 30:13

30:27 Hueneng, our sixth ancestor in the Platform Sūtra, says, don't try to stop thought. When you stop thought, you'll be dead. Dead people don't think. He said, don't try to stop thought. Let thoughts flow. Just don't attach. Report an error in the passage at 30:27 Highlight the passage at 30:27

30:49 So that is a very mysterious instruction. We have to figure out, okay, let thoughts flow and not attach. I'm not even sure if I know the difference between letting them flow and attaching. So it's something to study in our meditation practice. When a thought comes up, We notice that we have a response. We notice, say anger. Anger is an easy one because it's so distinct. Report an error in the passage at 30:49 Highlight the passage at 30:49

31:18 When we are angry, our thought, we probably want to go to the object of our anger. I'm mad at that person because of this or I'm mad at myself because I did this. We want to go to the object. But instead of doing that, we can stay in our body and study, oh, anger. It has something to do with some heat rising in my chest, some increased heart rate, increased breathing rate, some kind of my shoulders are moving up here. Report an error in the passage at 31:18 Highlight the passage at 31:18

31:51 There's some characteristics of anger that we can study. And then when we do that in our meditation practice, we can relax our shoulders. We can bring our attention back down low in our body. And we can do that and refrain from yet again playing the tape loop about how we're angry at something that somebody did when I was three or whatever. Report an error in the passage at 31:51 Highlight the passage at 31:51

32:24 Does that make sense? So our practice is very much concerned with not throwing our attention to the object. So I contain multitudes. multitudes. I don't have to get rid of any of the multitudes. I just don't want my multitudes to be rioting on the street and tearing things down, you know. Sometimes I might, but no. Report an error in the passage at 32:24 Highlight the passage at 32:24

32:54 that it's projecting the whole thing onto an object. That's where our meditation work is. Report an error in the passage at 32:54 Highlight the passage at 32:54

33:14 I have two children. And at the moment, they're two very different types of horses. And the metaphor kind of ends there, no whips or anything. I've been thinking a lot as I practice Sazen, how my children are very small, three and one half. And they're not yet in a, maybe they are more non-dualistic than I am, but I can't explain with words to them a lot of concepts yet. Report an error in the passage at 33:14 Highlight the passage at 33:14

33:45 And I know that's part of the Zen teaching, isn't it? Report an error in the passage at 33:45 Highlight the passage at 33:45

33:53 the way to learn rather than speaking and for my children i wonder in that story there's an implicit comparison at least the analysis between the non-buddhist and non and driving meaning with my children one of the things i think a lot about is comparison create quite a bit of shame um if they don't have the framework of non-dualism and understanding that both can be good and so i was just wondering on your reflections of how how to to treat treat you the different horses before I can teach them some of the foundational aspects of non-dualism in a way that doesn't create shame or unintended consequence. Report an error in the passage at 33:53 Highlight the passage at 33:53

34:34 What do you mean? When you said shame, give me some context for that. Yeah, I see when I compare my, like if I were to say, you know... to one child that oh your sister learns in a different way than you do or or you know your sister is the whatever the steel horse the good horse you know that would implicitly create a reaction oh so what am i and so how to how to have these different modalities of teaching to varieties of horses without yeah yeah Yeah. Report an error in the passage at 34:34 Highlight the passage at 34:34

35:11 Well, start out like Grandma. Just offer your big... Report an error in the passage at 35:11 Highlight the passage at 35:11

35:21 Don't over-engage with them. You know, kids, Norman and I have twin sons who are going to turn 50 in a couple months. And we raised them here. We moved here when they were four. We were at Tassajara. We moved there when they were seven months, and we moved here when they were four, and they left here to go to college. Report an error in the passage at 35:21 Highlight the passage at 35:21

35:46 So they're there. Now they live in a way different world. Report an error in the passage at 35:46 Highlight the passage at 35:46

35:56 it's surprising how little you can do for kids, how much they get out of so little. You know what I mean? Like their eagle eyes are on everything all the time, things that we miss, things that we don't have time for. They're looking at everything all the time, and they're learning so quickly at lightning speed. Report an error in the passage at 35:56 Highlight the passage at 35:56

36:19 I'm sure that you wake up a week, if you go away and you come back to your child a week later, whoa. How old are they? Three and one and a half. Yeah, yeah. So the main thing, I would say, is trust them. Trust them. You don't have to do all the teaching. There's a huge world that surrounds them that is contributing to the teaching, contributing a lot. Report an error in the passage at 36:19 Highlight the passage at 36:19

36:48 Of course, you are contributing a lot, but you don't have to take charge. You can sort of be a really good observer, see what's going on, see where you can step in and help and where you have to step in and help. There's plenty of those. This Report an error in the passage at 36:48 Highlight the passage at 36:48

37:21 is more Report an error in the passage at 37:21 Highlight the passage at 37:21

37:43 of a comment than a question. I'm reminded... you know, you can trust them and listen to them. Report an error in the passage at 37:43 Highlight the passage at 37:43

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37:50 ...of a story that your husband, Norman, told here easily 25 years ago. It's my first time back in 20... Wow. Welcome back. Thank you. And it has stayed with me, and I have practiced it, and that is... Here's a paraphrase of saying goodnight to your twin boys. And going to one bed and saying, you're the best. Report an error in the passage at 37:50 Highlight the passage at 37:50

38:28 and then going to the other bed and saying, You are the best. Report an error in the passage at 38:28 Highlight the passage at 38:28

38:37 And I do that with my two cats. Report an error in the passage at 38:37 Highlight the passage at 38:37

38:44 Every day. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Norman. Isn't that wonderful? We can, you know, we can... me. Report an error in the passage at 38:44 Highlight the passage at 38:44

38:55 We can reinvent language here. Best is a comparative word in the English language, but we don't have to follow that rule. Everybody in this room can be best. And we can actually study that and discover it's actually true. Report an error in the passage at 38:55 Highlight the passage at 38:55

39:20 Yes, in the back. Report an error in the passage at 39:20 Highlight the passage at 39:20

39:35 Thank you for your talk. You're welcome. you know? Report an error in the passage at 39:35 Highlight the passage at 39:35

39:37 I wonder, is there an age limit on going into grandma's lap? And my second question is, how do you know if you're going in grandma's lap too much or not enough? Report an error in the passage at 39:37 Highlight the passage at 39:37

39:50 Oh, you're one of the squirmy ones. Yeah, me too. Well, you know, grandma's lap is the whole earth. And just the feeling of being... Loved and included in this whole earth, regardless of what kind of a funky mood we're in or whatever, what kind of a desperate situation we're in, of our own making or not. Report an error in the passage at 39:50 Highlight the passage at 39:50

40:19 Regardless of all that, we are held and loved by life, by the air, by the gravity in this great earth, Grandma's lap. You can almost, some short version of that is like a little mantra for you. Oh, grandma's lap. Report an error in the passage at 40:19 Highlight the passage at 40:19

40:44 The grandma's lap thing is kind of like, that was my image because I'm a grandmother and I teach, you know, I'm a school teacher the whole nine yards. But it's really kind of a variation on Suzuki Roshi saying, if you want to control your cows, you give them a really big field. So the point of that is, if you want to control your cows, forget about it. Report an error in the passage at 40:44 Highlight the passage at 40:44

41:11 Why would you control a cow? Give them a really big field so that whatever harm they're doing, they won't be doing the kind of harm. So it's that kind of an image. It's a flipping around. How do I control my cows? Well, Suzuki Roshi doesn't say, you don't. Stop trying to control your cows. He says, just give them a place where they don't need to be controlled. Report an error in the passage at 41:11 Highlight the passage at 41:11

41:39 So the grandmother's lap is a similar theme. But what I really like to use, I really am liking to use the word in Zen teaching and practice as much as I can, love. I really like love. We kind of drummed it out of things there for a while. And I really think that grandma's lap... I'm a grandmother, so I know, and if you're grandparents, you know this. It's just love. Report an error in the passage at 41:39 Highlight the passage at 41:39

42:16 Kathie, I'm wondering, the story of the I don't ask for words, I don't ask for no words, do you think it's that there was nothing needed to be said? Or why the silence? Well, I think that the way I take it is that the answer Include both. It's like the field or grandma's lap. Words or non-words. Don't get caught up in words. Don't get caught up in not using words. Just include the whole thing. And that's how it strikes me that Buddha's response to him embodies. Report an error in the passage at 42:16 Highlight the passage at 42:16

43:08 We're just all here with whatever. words and non-words and whips on our back, whatever we have, we're just all here. Report an error in the passage at 43:08 Highlight the passage at 43:08

43:29 for the lecture. I really appreciate it. I'm wondering if you could comment more. In my practice, I've been practicing for a little while now, but very on and off, but if you could just comment more on sort of And this is how I feel in my practice. It's just a fluctuation between the bad horse and the good horse and how to sort of work with that. Report an error in the passage at 43:29 Highlight the passage at 43:29

43:59 Yeah, well, you contain multitudes, so, you know, that's your horses. Let me just say sort of a preface to what I can sort of say about that. Report an error in the passage at 43:59 Highlight the passage at 43:59

44:19 You know, I... I really like to think of Zen practice or Zen practice communities as like artist colonies. One of our sons is an artist and I went to help him once he was at RISD and I went to help him when he was in the middle of his semester he was working on a project. And working on a project at RISD meant you have dinner and you sit around and you do this and that and about maybe 11.30 at night you go to the studio. Report an error in the passage at 44:19 Highlight the passage at 44:19

44:50 And, you know, so we did that, 11.30 at night. We went to the studio, and we, you know, people were drifting in, drifting in, and drifting in, and, you know, chatting and preparing and everything. And within an hour, it was like zendo, fifth day of sesshin. It was like quiet, intense. Report an error in the passage at 44:50 Highlight the passage at 44:50

45:11 Everyone was completely occupied with their... Their project. And Occupied included going over and saying, can I borrow some plaster of Paris for my project over here? It included doing their art and some minimal interaction, but it just really opened my eyes. I thought, wow, this is like Zendo. This is like Sashin. Just that sense of intensity, but everyone is doing their own art. Report an error in the passage at 45:11 Highlight the passage at 45:11

45:41 Everyone is following their own inspiration. Getting ideas and sharing materials all over the place, but everyone is really generating their own practice here. So we can give you some guidelines. The characteristic of Zen is that there's a way to walk across the floor. You start with one foot, not the other foot, and you turn to the right but not to the left, and you do all this stuff. Report an error in the passage at 45:41 Highlight the passage at 45:41

46:07 But when you sit down in a cushion, somebody might say, well, you could follow your breaths if you want. You can count them if you want. You don't get an instruction manual here for meditation. So we generate the practice ourself in discussion with each other in all kinds of ways, possibly in some reading about Buddhism in whatever way works for your life and whatever way interests you. Report an error in the passage at 46:07 Highlight the passage at 46:07

46:38 We get some inspiration, but the work is our own. own and um And so when I talk about the grandma lap thing, that fits me and I want to share it with you because it's helped me a lot to, you know, in my life to have, you know, parts of me that I think I'm supposed to drum out and get rid of or parts of me that I can't accept. Report an error in the passage at 46:38 Highlight the passage at 46:38

47:05 No, no, no, no, no. Grandma's lap. Just all those ornery little grandchildren have a place here. They have a place and they have a function. So that's the preface to your question. What I wanted to say was that we find our anchor in Zazen. In general, our anchor is breath. And it's very... I'm not going to tell you what to do, but for me it's been very important to keep my breath low in my belly. Report an error in the passage at 47:05 Highlight the passage at 47:05

47:46 And so that's just where I come back to. And if I come back with a crowd of ornery children, that's okay. I just know where I'm coming back to. And I know that I'm coming back to breath. There's a lot of different practices. You don't have to do that one. But I did want to say that this is really kind of your own work and we're all here to help each other out in whatever way we can. Report an error in the passage at 47:46 Highlight the passage at 47:46

48:16 Would you like to say more? Report an error in the passage at 48:16 Highlight the passage at 48:16

48:27 Who's talking? Sorry, me back here. I'm rather new to meditation practice in general. And one of the things that's kind of been weighing on me recently is trying to sort out awareness from over a hyperactive awareness of myself. And it's something that's moving beyond just the zendo into just my normal life. Report an error in the passage at 48:27 Highlight the passage at 48:27

48:24 Um, so, I'm... Report an error in the passage at 48:24 Highlight the passage at 48:24

48:52 Yeah, sorting that balance, and I was wondering if you had any sort of advice or thought around that. Yeah. Well, you want to study the overactive thing. You want to feel into it. When you feel overactive, go to your body and find a way to calm yourself, usually with breath, but sometimes it's actually best to go walking. Report an error in the passage at 48:52 Highlight the passage at 48:52

49:21 If you're, especially if you're kind of spilling over with some kind of energy that's not helpful, it's nice to get outside and move your body. That's very helpful. But go to your body and see what's what. And like I said, for me, it's been helpful to go to a place, not to go roaming all over my body, which is not to say that I don't, I do have awareness of different parts of my body, but My primary is breath in the belly. So when you feel like a lot of energy that seems chaotic, could you say more about it? Report an error in the passage at 49:21 Highlight the passage at 49:21

50:09 Yeah, I guess it's kind of my understanding of meditation is to be aware of yourself and to sort of watch what's happening. Report an error in the passage at 50:09 Highlight the passage at 50:09

50:19 It happens certainly in meditation, but I've been noticing a lot more out of it. I'm a resident here, so in kind of the life here, this sort of awareness can almost become almost obsessive and sort of circular. It's sort of tricky at times I've been finding to sort, I guess what's more like a Zen positive awareness versus an anxious, obsessive awareness, if that makes sense. Report an error in the passage at 50:19 Highlight the passage at 50:19

50:46 Yeah, that makes sense. Now, I have almost the opposite problem, and I've come up with something that's helped me. I like to run and I like to hike, and so about two months ago I fell on my face, and I mentioned that, and I've really thought, I don't want to stop running. I'm an old lady, and there's reasons that old people fall. And I've studied the situation and think, well, you know, my feet are not as... Report an error in the passage at 50:46 Highlight the passage at 50:46

51:15 Smart as they used to be, my feet are going stupid on me. Report an error in the passage at 51:15 Highlight the passage at 51:15

51:23 And so I have intentionally, when I run or walk, I intentionally put my attention on the bottom of my feet. And instead of breathing in and breathing out, which is always good, I mean you're always doing it, so it's good, I put my attention on the contact of my foot to earth, one after another. And, I mean, by definition, that's very grounding. But it's also, you know, it's repetitive and it's calming and it's helpful to me. Report an error in the passage at 51:23 Highlight the passage at 51:23

51:59 So my suggestion is to try going somewhere in your body like your feet, someplace that doesn't usually get a lot of attention, you know, like the bottom of your feet. I don't know how much attention you give it, the bottom of your feet. Report an error in the passage at 51:59 Highlight the passage at 51:59

52:16 Something like the bottom of your feet, if you put your attention there, it's kind of like a little break. It gives you kind of a break and also it's really satisfying to feel contact with the earth actively over and over again that way. So that's just an idea. Report an error in the passage at 52:16 Highlight the passage at 52:16

52:54 Crystal Joy here. I have an aversion to a teaching and I would love to just hear some of your words onto it and I'll give you a little context. Report an error in the passage at 52:54 Highlight the passage at 52:54

53:04 didn't cry. This compassionate man who was incredibly equanimous, and he didn't cry. And one of my favorite teachings from the Bible is that Jesus wept. And I identify with that like crazy because I consider myself a very compassionate person. And with that compassion, there are a lot of feelings that I have with my own things, but also other beings, and especially in the world right now, in the news, various things, right? Report an error in the passage at 53:04 Highlight the passage at 53:04

53:30 And whenever And whenever I I hear hear that that teaching, teaching, I'm like, I don't ever ask. I ever want to get to a point where I don't feel it and cry from some of the things that I hear about that happen to other humans. Report an error in the passage at 53:30 Highlight the passage at 53:30

53:45 And it's not that I don't want equanimity, but does that mean I have to lose those deep feelings of being human and being compassionate for these beings? Report an error in the passage at 53:45 Highlight the passage at 53:45

53:57 Yeah, equanimity. I think we have to take equanimity more like grandma's lap. Everyone is welcome, everyone is loved without exception. If we take equanimity as kind of, you know, blanding everything out so it's equal, then I think that we don't, I don't think that does us justice as practitioners. Report an error in the passage at 53:57 Highlight the passage at 53:57

54:30 And as for the weeping, I didn't know that Buddha never wept. I mean, to me, he weeps. And, you know, not a weeping image, but a kind of extraordinary bursting out compassion image is Avalokiteshvara, who is covered with eyes and ears and grows a new hand when she needs to help. I mean, so that's not about a fantastic creature who can grow hands, like an amoeba. Report an error in the passage at 54:30 Highlight the passage at 54:30

55:05 I was thinking of amoebas. But anyway, that's just me, weird. But it's not that she has a magical power to grow hands and eyes. It's that she has such feeling. Her heart is breaking open such that she has capacity beyond normal. To help, you know, we've all known such people. Maybe Jesus would like that. And then a follow-up to that, then there is the, what, Report an error in the passage at 55:05 Highlight the passage at 55:05

55:44 I don't have the formulated question, but it's like the not getting so overwhelmed when so much is coming at you, death, loss, suffering, because of being a compassionate person, right? Like not being overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. Report an error in the passage at 55:44 Highlight the passage at 55:44

56:04 What are the tools to that, like to be able to have the eyes and the ears and the breaking open without breaking down? Well, that's the big question for us in our world, isn't it? We've got, what, eight and a quarter billion people and growing, and the suffering is beyond our imagination, and when it comes to our attention, it's heartbreaking, and sometimes we can't even touch it, you know? Report an error in the passage at 56:04 Highlight the passage at 56:04

56:31 So, yeah, the dilemma of our time in the world, and we don't know if it's been similar at other times in the world. I mean, we do know horrible, horrible tragedies have happened in history, throughout human history. We just don't know. You know, we don't know our context very much. We just know what it is for us now. Report an error in the passage at 56:31 Highlight the passage at 56:31

56:58 And, you know, we just do our best. Meditation and sleep and eating healthy food allows us to get up and be ready to face the next day. So we take care of ourselves. In Buddhism, everything we do starts with ourself. The practice of compassion starts with ourself. The practice of forgiveness, the practice of giving, it always starts with ourself. And when we understand giving, when we understand how we give to ourself, then we can open up that giving to others. Report an error in the passage at 56:58 Highlight the passage at 56:58

57:39 And that's kind of the opposite of our tradition, especially for women, in which women were kind of expected to sacrifice, give up what you have and want and everything and do for others. Buddhism is not like that. We start nourishing ourselves. We don't see a separation between ourselves and others. So it's an expression of love and caring that we take care of ourselves. Report an error in the passage at 57:39 Highlight the passage at 57:39

58:08 It's just that we don't stop there. Report an error in the passage at 58:08 Highlight the passage at 58:08

58:21 Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to sit in this room with you. Can you imagine sitting in a room with... I have to imagine sitting in a room... with people who want Report an error in the passage at 58:21 Highlight the passage at 58:21

58:42 of sincerity and love and giving in their lives and gather together to think about how could we do this? Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click giving. Report an error in the passage at 58:42 Highlight the passage at 58:42

59:18 May we fully enjoy the Dharma. Report an error in the passage at 59:18 Highlight the passage at 59:18