What is and What Should Be - Q and A (1991)

0:00 you very much. The struggle between what is and what should be, which relates and has related to my own work on Indonesia. It's a country and a place which I've been involved with for a long time. And in the early stages, I had a very unquestioned affection, Report an error in the passage at 0:00 Highlight the passage at 0:00

0:30 involvement. There came a day when a book was sent to me. Report an error in the passage at 0:30 Highlight the passage at 0:30

0:54 what should be the possession of East Evo, which is the East Ebolian community. Report an error in the passage at 0:54 Highlight the passage at 0:54

1:03 scholar, I've never had any understanding of what was going on there at all. Report an error in the passage at 1:03 Highlight the passage at 1:03

1:16 dilemma about what I would do when decided that would publish something. Report an error in the passage at 1:16 Highlight the passage at 1:16

1:26 that particular situation. Report an error in the passage at 1:26 Highlight the passage at 1:26

1:31 the years, since 1983, when I first published that, become clear that I can no longer talk about this a pseudonym or be anonymous about this. Report an error in the passage at 1:31 Highlight the passage at 1:31

1:43 the situation has arisen whereby... Report an error in the passage at 1:43 Highlight the passage at 1:43

1:49 having a certain idea of what I expect. A certain basic sort of sealer of what I expect from the music that a situation has developed where it's very difficult for me to travel, to go back to the music, to have any sort of formal dealings with the country. And I feel almost, you know, like a love affair that has suddenly gone sour. Report an error in the passage at 1:49 Highlight the passage at 1:49

2:21 That here was a place which I admired, which pressed me to the dharma. First talk in meditation, where I have many friends, many acquaintances, which I'm involved with by blood through marriage, but yet I know about what has been happening in an area which has been almost totally neglected until the Gulf War, and it's now become slightly more understood. Report an error in the passage at 2:21 Highlight the passage at 2:21

2:52 And there's an enormous tension between what is bloodshed, torture, denial of human rights, On a normal scale, much worse than Cambodia in the years of Pol Pot. And yet, should I keep silent about that? I mean, what is the skillful response to a situation like this? I mean, it's not as though they're very high out of the movement, but one expects people to abide by certain norms in the international community. Report an error in the passage at 2:52 Highlight the passage at 2:52

3:30 But those norms have been flouted for the past 16 years. What is a Buddhist? Report an error in the passage at 3:30 Highlight the passage at 3:30

3:43 bring those to you. Well, Report an error in the passage at 3:43 Highlight the passage at 3:43

3:52 it has organizations like Amnesty International. Do they know about it? Report an error in the passage at 3:52 Highlight the passage at 3:52

4:11 That's Timor. And Report an error in the passage at 4:11 Highlight the passage at 4:11

4:18 that is governed by Indonesia. East Timor. Well, Report an error in the passage at 4:18 Highlight the passage at 4:18

4:48 it's like something like that. How I like to... it? Or it? Report an error in the passage at 4:48 Highlight the passage at 4:48

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4:58 Contemplate, like love, as something that underlies everything rather than a positive feeling about something. So, like I noticed that, I mean, because I think we all have to investigate what love is, not just take a superficial view of it or just a sentiment or a romantic Report an error in the passage at 4:58 Highlight the passage at 4:58

5:30 ...view of love, which tends to be, because love is used for so many different levels of experience. But in the terms of that which unites and that which is one, you see, when you're talking about oneness or universality or totality, then the word love is the kind of... ...dynamic relationship with the totality or with the universe. Report an error in the passage at 5:30 Highlight the passage at 5:30

6:07 And that, of course, means that every possibility is accepted within that totality because the totality allows for every variation, every aberration, every normal, abnormal, natural, unnatural... Good, bad, angels to devils and demons and the whole lot. When you make a perception of totality in your mind, then it includes everything. Report an error in the passage at 6:07 Highlight the passage at 6:07

6:42 And so then whatever the details or the particular qualities are all contained within the totality. And I say what holds it together is... Where, say, is the experience of love, which is non, which doesn't discriminate or condemn anything, but is, which isn't blind or stupid either, but it isn't, the loving, ability to love means that there's, we're not dwelling on what's wrong and condemning anything, because that's a discriminative function of the mind. Report an error in the passage at 6:42 Highlight the passage at 6:42

7:27 So, We need to recognize the power of love as what holds everything together and which includes everything and all possibilities. So that's like the mettā practice of Buddhism. Mettā Bhavana then is the expression of love of everything which doesn't mean approving or liking. Because love is, you know, is able to contain, is for the totality rather than for the particular thing itself or any detail or any part of it or any piece of it. Report an error in the passage at 7:27 Highlight the passage at 7:27

8:12 So this gives us a sense of, we begin to recognize the power of love as the non-discriminative intelligence that we have. That we can tune into. Then the discriminative function of mind is where we see what's wrong and the injustices, and that can be based on, you know, humanitarian ideals or moral principles, ethics, virtues, and things like that, in which we try to, say, encourage the, and ourselves, what we can do differently. Report an error in the passage at 8:12 Highlight the passage at 8:12

8:55 Take responsibility for our own lives, to guide those by, say, moral standards and virtuous principles, and then to be aware of these other evils and demonic occurrences in the universe. But if we dwell on the demonic occurrences with a lot of anger and hatred, then we develop We get depressed and we get hopeless. In fact, what we do then tends to, we tend to even destroy, or even by our own anger and aversion, we tend to increase the amount of the power of that energy in the universe. Report an error in the passage at 8:55 Highlight the passage at 8:55

9:50 That's why love is always the... Hatred does not end by hatred, but only love. Is there a possibility to end anger and hatred? So this is why, say, investigating dharma, then you realize the power of love is not just a sentiment, but an actual realization. Report an error in the passage at 9:50 Highlight the passage at 9:50

10:21 Well, say, in mettā practice or in developing that, you go to that in yourself which is pure and bright, is intelligence, but it's before you start taking a stand against it. It's merely a recognition, say, of an evil thing, like in Timor. And then, instead of dwelling on the... It doesn't mean that you can't investigate at one time what's wrong, but say in the spreading of mettā and of love to that place, then you, instead of dwelling on it in a negative or developing this hopeless, despairing attitude about it, then go to it more with offering of goodwill and well-being to all members, both to the To all beings involved in that particular place or everywhere, because love is all-embracing. But you can designate a particular place, a particular person, a species, a nation, whatever. Report an error in the passage at 10:21 Highlight the passage at 10:21

11:33 It's all a way of reflecting and recollecting in your mind about it. So I would recommend developing a strong A meta for Indonesia. Because that will really help it. And like with all our countries, you know, the United States or Thailand is a country I love a lot. I feel very tremendous gratitude and love for Thailand because I was a monk there. Report an error in the passage at 11:33 Highlight the passage at 11:33

12:16 And yet, you know, the kind of stories you hear about the Report an error in the passage at 12:16 Highlight the passage at 12:16

12:29 But then to kind of just dwell on it as a kind of being disappointed or disillusioned with Thailand, I don't see it as helping me or helping Thailand in any way, but through a determination to live in a way that is going to benefit Report an error in the passage at 12:29 Highlight the passage at 12:29

12:51 and to encourage Thai people to... really Thailand has a tremendously rich culture and fantastically good religion. So, I mean, it's got... Report an error in the passage at 12:51 Highlight the passage at 12:51

13:13 So much, and yet because of its fascination with Western materialism, it easily falls into the more kind of areas of license and degeneration. But like anything, like a father and mother, a good father and mother love their children, even if they're criminals and prostitutes and demons and whatnot. It's not that... Report an error in the passage at 13:13 Highlight the passage at 13:13

13:42 That you in any way approve, but you underline all that, there is something else that is universal and very pure. So I've been very, just experimenting with just the concept of totality, because, say, totality as a perception. Report an error in the passage at 13:42 Highlight the passage at 13:42

14:10 And then because that includes everything, my discriminant faculties don't operate when I'm just concentrating on totality. There's nothing, because all negativity and positivity fit into that perception, your tendency to compare, you can't compare totality with anything. Report an error in the passage at 14:10 Highlight the passage at 14:10

14:33 And because everything is contained in it, therefore... Your critical mind stops. It can't operate until you start taking bits and pieces out of the totality and comparing how this is better than that. So with that, like in the mettā practice, if you notice it, it's a total mettā. It's for all sentient beings, seen, unseen, born, unborn. Report an error in the passage at 14:33 Highlight the passage at 14:33

15:06 All possibilities of beings on other planets and other realms to all hell realms and demonic realms, I mean, it's just so, you know, and you're in the mettā practice, it's so all-inclusive that your mind can't possibly think of any other, you know, there's no possible being or soul or consciousness left. Report an error in the passage at 15:06 Highlight the passage at 15:06

15:31 So that is actually a totality that mettā practice is based on, which isn't like a refusal to look at what's wrong, but it's using your mind in a different way. And so then you can learn when it is appropriate to practice mettā and when it's not. Like if you need to discriminate, then you have, and then you can use your intelligence and discriminative abilities to maybe find solutions or possible ways of influencing that particular situation to maybe improve it or help in some way. Report an error in the passage at 15:31 Highlight the passage at 15:31

16:16 So then we can use our critical discerning faculties, but it's within the perspective of mettā that it's being used rather than Then with just the being averse to it and where oftentimes the aversion and being appalled and angry and outraged by something, then there's always a tendency to seek solutions through some kind of revenge or getting even or some nastiness in ourselves seems to influence even our good intentions. Report an error in the passage at 16:16 Highlight the passage at 16:16

16:53 Well, with mettā, there's no possibility for, you know, following, for seeking action on anything that's tainted with, say, revenge or prejudice or wanting to get even with somebody. Report an error in the passage at 16:53 Highlight the passage at 16:53

17:29 I've had interesting, you know, just like you, in the monastic life and the Buddhist world. Even though the planet is assuming, we assume that it's a big planet with Buddhists scattered all over it. So you have Buddhists in New Zealand and Thailand and India and America and so forth. And yet the grapevine, the gossip, gets around very quickly. Report an error in the passage at 17:29 Highlight the passage at 17:29

18:06 I guess it's through mass media. Report an error in the passage at 18:06 Highlight the passage at 18:06

18:37 The problem with having high standards of moral discipline is that it's easy to be very critical of other groups who aren't maybe as high, whose standards aren't as high, and to look down on them or to even despise them. So the problem with being so pure is that you can become a snob and a kind of arrogant. Report an error in the passage at 18:37 Highlight the passage at 18:37

19:08 I got an arrogance that said. So you hear about, you know, Rajneesh. Well, you know, I knew it was going to happen. You know, this serves him right. Then you hear about various others and you've already suspected that they're not quite, you know, trustworthy. And you find yourself almost sometimes being glad at their demise or their failures. Report an error in the passage at 19:08 Highlight the passage at 19:08

19:35 And you look at these unpleasant, these mental states, and then your kind of righteous side comes out and you think, that monk shouldn't be like that, or they have no right to be that way, or it's easy to pass judgments on other Buddhist monks or nuns or groups or traditions. So this... Report an error in the passage at 19:35 Highlight the passage at 19:35

20:04 This I've watched in my mind, just noticing what it is to feel self-righteous or to be very critical of somebody else, even if they are doing things that you can criticize. Still, this tendency to think that they shouldn't be that way and that it's wrong and they shouldn't be doing that can take over your mind. Report an error in the passage at 20:04 Highlight the passage at 20:04

20:34 So then with the reflection on totality, I began to have a sense of relief that in the totality there's room for everybody. So then it was rather, there's a kind of relief to discover that it's not up to me to decide who has the right to teach, who are the appropriate Buddhists and make all the... The judgments and give all the advice and then to feel that I should condemn anyone else. Report an error in the passage at 20:34 Highlight the passage at 20:34

21:10 That whole range of activity now has been relinquished to the totality. And that's a relief because that's a terrible way to have to be, isn't it? To always be on this kind of high horse or to always feel that somebody shouldn't be here. Things shouldn't be like this or they shouldn't be like that. So just say in reflecting on dharma, then one could very skillfully allow for infinite variation and levels and changes and different attitudes and ways without the, you know, and feeling that it all belongs. Report an error in the passage at 21:10 Highlight the passage at 21:10

21:55 And even to... Except the demons and the devils and the charlatans and the rascals. And so that's a part of life's experience rather than just feeling very angry all the time or threatened or critical of people because they might not have the same standards as I do or they might be very wrong or even... Report an error in the passage at 21:55 Highlight the passage at 21:55

22:26 Even evil in what they're doing. But what good is it for me to harbor some kind of negative, hold on to any kind of negative feeling about it. So in this way, you feel a sense of letting go. And it's not in saying everything, it's not being kind of smarmy tolerant, saying everything's equal and everything's nice. Report an error in the passage at 22:26 Highlight the passage at 22:26

22:56 It's nothing superficial like that, but it is a willingness to have mettā and this love for all possibilities and to trust in that more than in one's own tendency, say personal tendencies, to judge according to the standards of your own group or your tradition. Report an error in the passage at 22:56 Highlight the passage at 22:56

23:25 Because I find that suffering, you know, I find it... As an experience, to look down on somebody, if you really look at that in your mind, that's a form of suffering. Report an error in the passage at 23:25 Highlight the passage at 23:25

23:40 It's an unpleasant feeling to look down on somebody else. And so I give up that. I realize I don't have to look down on anyone else. It's not necessary or even helpful or useful way of reacting to life. Report an error in the passage at 23:40 Highlight the passage at 23:40

24:28 These are suggestions for contemplation. I like to understand things like Report an error in the passage at 24:28 Highlight the passage at 24:28

24:45 the mettā practice or developing positive images in your mind. Not sentiments where you just... Riding on a wave of sentimentality, of just attaching to thoughts, but really trying to bring love into something that Report an error in the passage at 24:45 Highlight the passage at 24:45

25:17 isn't just an ideal in your head, but you're beginning to recognize that as your own experience of life that you may not have noticed, because love tends to be so identified with maybe infatuation or ...attachment to somebody, or a very kind of, you know, powerful emotional feeling towards somebody. But in the, say, mettā, or trying to bring the word love into... Report an error in the passage at 25:17 Highlight the passage at 25:17

25:47 Because I like... Because love is a word that is a very powerful word in the English language. Where mettā doesn't quite have the same emotional... Report an error in the passage at 25:47 Highlight the passage at 25:47

26:01 ...power as the English word love. And love, that's why they use it for, you know, they play on the word in music and the cinema and so forth, because it is such a strong, meaningful word to us and reaches the emotional, our emotional plane very directly. And yet it can be just very silly, you know, just like... Report an error in the passage at 26:01 Highlight the passage at 26:01

26:28 teenage infatuation or to eat fish and chips or something like that. But it be equated with just liking something. bringing that word into an actual experience... See if you can do that and really get to know that in yourself, which is non-discriminatory, where you're not... You're not going into dwelling on what's wrong with anything or comparing it. And where the mind is bright, it's not being caught up in inspired thinking, but it is very balanced and accepting. Report an error in the passage at 26:28 Highlight the passage at 26:28

27:16 That's what I call the experience of realization of love. And so everything is accepted in that, in that mind. That is that way. And so you relate to its dynamic, because love has a dynamic quality. It's not static kind of concept, is it? You want to think of loving somebody. It always has a kind of verbal power to it, you know, movement and action. Report an error in the passage at 27:16 Highlight the passage at 27:16

27:49 So then it has this containing, all-embracing, total. And in that way, if you really develop that perception, you begin to feel a sense of inner peace with life and with all that happens to you and all you hear about and all possibilities. Report an error in the passage at 27:49 Highlight the passage at 27:49

28:23 Then the wisdom faculty, like Panya and Karuṇā, or compassion, wisdom and compassion, And like the Mahāyāna school very much emphasized, kind of put such an emphasis on compassion, where Theravāda emphasizes wisdom. And yet, you know, so some people get confused about whether you should be Mahāyāna or Theravāda because maybe you, you know, compassion is more appealing to you than wisdom or whatever. Report an error in the passage at 28:23 Highlight the passage at 28:23

29:01 But that's not really a problem because... They don't cancel each other out. It's just when you make an emphasis you have to hold up one thing first and say this is wisdom. It doesn't mean that compassion is lesser. It just means you're pointing to this at this time. Because our minds can only accept one thing at a time consciously. Report an error in the passage at 29:01 Highlight the passage at 29:01

29:24 If you put wisdom and compassion as one thing you can even do that. But then you want to But because they're different in their kind of quality, then you bring one up, and the other flows like the relationship of the static and dynamic, or the absolute and the relative, or the condition and the unconditioned. Report an error in the passage at 29:24 Highlight the passage at 29:24

29:56 All this is, say, the purpose of religion is to bring our attention An awareness to the relationships of, say, the mortal and the immortal, or the absolute and the relative, or the earth and the heavens, or whatever these seeming opposites, or in the Taoist symbol of yin-yang, isn't it? The opposites are not polarized, are they? They're all embracing. Report an error in the passage at 29:56 Highlight the passage at 29:56

30:34 They're embracing each other. They're complementary. Western idealism tends to be a polarization of opposites. And I found my mind conditioned through, when I say, before I was a Buddhist, being brought up in middle class, white, Protestant America. Report an error in the passage at 30:34 Highlight the passage at 30:34

31:07 That whole kind of cultural conditioning, my mind was polarized. It was black and white, good and bad, right and wrong, absolute ties in opposites. And so you were supposed to choose the good and reject the bad. And that's how my conditioned mind tends to operate. Because that's how it was conditioned from my cultural background, from my parents. Report an error in the passage at 31:07 Highlight the passage at 31:07

31:36 The way they thought and the way my society thought and perceived the world was like that, was opposed good and evil. And what attracted Report an error in the passage at 31:36 Highlight the passage at 31:36

32:03 me to Buddhism, really, was the fact that that polarization was transcended. That polarizing of opposites was transcended in the middle way of the Buddha. And that's what really... What impressed me and why I really became a Buddhist was because that seemed to be like such an amazing way to look at life and would solve the problems of life through transcending rather than through taking sides. Report an error in the passage at 32:03 Highlight the passage at 32:03

32:38 With the other way, you're just always forced into always this kind of warfare that goes on on the level of... Report an error in the passage at 32:38 Highlight the passage at 32:38

32:50 there's no end to it, it's just exhausting and you feel a sense of despair and hopelessness with Right. Report an error in the passage at 32:50 Highlight the passage at 32:50

33:10 You see, it's like taking relative things and absolutizing them. Judgmentalism, make one judgmental, the right and the wrong. Report an error in the passage at 33:10 Highlight the passage at 33:10

33:17 There's absolute right, and then wrong is also absolute because of that. Or God and the devil. I mean, even though in Christianity the devil is a lesser being, you know, in the way they perceive the devil, still the devil has as much power as God. Sometimes you think even more. You know, because the... Report an error in the passage at 33:17 Highlight the passage at 33:17

33:48 The tendency of the mind to polarize like that is this constant warfare with the devil. Report an error in the passage at 33:48 Highlight the passage at 33:48

33:58 I was always brought up with that, that you had to always kind of fight and try to destroy evil. So that was because the evil seemed as absolute as God was absolute. Even though they said the devil wasn't, yet... The logic was there still, you know, the unsaid logic still followed that he actually is absolute. Report an error in the passage at 33:58 Highlight the passage at 33:58

34:33 I think more. Report an error in the passage at 34:33 Highlight the passage at 34:33

34:45 I think many of us after the Second World War were, I mean, I was a child, I was 11 at the end of the war, but, and of course being an American, we didn't really, we weren't, you know, we didn't get any of the hardships really of it. But when the Life magazine started publishing these horrendous photos of the concentration camps, I remember as a child having this tremendous faith in God and then thinking, how could he allow such terrible things to happen? Report an error in the passage at 34:45 Highlight the passage at 34:45

35:21 Because you think, he certainly has power to stop such terrible kind of activities. And then your mind just can't handle it really. As a child I didn't know how to deal with that. How such a horrible thing could happen if God was a loving and good being or a good God. Report an error in the passage at 35:21 Highlight the passage at 35:21

35:47 I think that was a moral dilemma with a lot of people after that war. Report an error in the passage at 35:47 Highlight the passage at 35:47

36:01 ended, we were given a day off from school. Now, Report an error in the passage at 36:01 Highlight the passage at 36:01

36:18 I mean, there's been so many since that time, you know, with just the endless brutality. Because you see, humanity, we tend to assume we're a lot more advanced than we are, and that we shouldn't be that way. I felt guilty because I felt that it was really a very good man. Report an error in the passage at 36:18 Highlight the passage at 36:18

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36:40 The assumptions are there, but obviously civilization as it tends to be, as it tends to exist now is very superficial because we easily degenerate into brutality and into kind of very kind of gross bestiality very easily. And this is, I think it shocks us all how easy it is to think. And that the thing that does, the thing that is most important, but is oftentimes dismissed as irrelevant or not terribly important, is morality. Report an error in the passage at 36:40 Highlight the passage at 36:40

37:29 Because we all have this kind of instinctual tendencies for survival and procreation. We come from a whole evolutionary line of all possibilities. Report an error in the passage at 37:29 Highlight the passage at 37:29

37:47 And even if you believe in past lives or whatever, there's always this sense of having these influences from other previous lives or from other areas or from history or from karma, from nationality or from... ...from tribal strains or class or whatever. And these are, you see, if they're not put in the perspective of morality, then we easily revert into a kind of atavistic type of behavior when our life is threatened or when there's the possibilities for brutality or for this panic and this... Report an error in the passage at 37:47 Highlight the passage at 37:47

38:35 This kind of demonic energy takes over. Now, see, I've seen it in myself because I was brought up with a high standard of morality, but I've been in the military and I've observed just how the mind, you know, sometimes one is shocked at, say, certain reactions you find in yourself. Because ideally, you may not like that at all, but there's something instinctual that isn't dealing with ideals, but it's a kind of almost like kind of atavistic tendencies and that they come from who knows where, from instinct or whatever. Report an error in the passage at 38:35 Highlight the passage at 38:35

39:27 And because of the deliberate respect and association and resolution to live within a moral structure, of course, then you can always put those kind of demonic energies into the perspective of dharma. They arise and cease and you don't act on them. But if you didn't have any commitment to any moral precedence, what would happen? Report an error in the passage at 39:27 Highlight the passage at 39:27

40:02 Then it was interesting with When Ajahn Prabhakara was a monk, because he was a Vietnam veteran, and he became a Buddhist through going to Vietnam and seeing all these horrible things in Vietnam, and then going to Thailand for a holiday and becoming aware of Buddhism and of the five precepts, and then deciding to get a... Report an error in the passage at 40:02 Highlight the passage at 40:02

40:36 ...discharge from the military in order to keep the moral precepts of the Buddhists, you see. But he always had this fascination for the Vietnam War, and so he used to furnish me with books and anything about Vietnam. Ajahn Prabhakara had it. So he gave me a book on Vietnam veterans and also this video that the BBC made. Report an error in the passage at 40:36 Highlight the passage at 40:36

41:03 In 1988, called Return to My Lai, My Lai was the village in Vietnam that the American troops went in one day and just shot everyone in sight, animals included. There were mostly women and children in the village, or old people. And they just slaughtered, brutalized everybody. An old died, most of them died, and none of these people were fighting back or resisting. You see, so it was, and then it was reported and it was big news and the Americans were shocked because they, usually those things were never acknowledged or accepted and Americans never did things like that, you see. Report an error in the passage at 41:03 Highlight the passage at 41:03

41:52 American men were all John Wayne, you know, you went in and you gave little sweets to the kiddies in the village and you killed the bad. Viet Cong people, you know, they looked bad. They had fangs and they, you know, obviously were bad. But little old ladies and people, you kind of helped out, got them out of the rice paddy and did nice things. Report an error in the passage at 41:52 Highlight the passage at 41:52

42:17 But then this was obviously not the case. And so then the BBC, and I don't think this was ever shown in the States. It was quite a good video they made where... They went back to My Lai in Vietnam. It was in 1968 that it happened. And then in 1988, they went back 20 years later and they interviewed a lot of the people that were there that were still alive. Report an error in the passage at 42:17 Highlight the passage at 42:17

42:47 And also, they interviewed some of the American GIs who were involved in this. And it was interesting to see, like the American GIs, some were just They were caught in this energy. They were frightened. They were programmed to kill in the military training. They were given weapons. They were all 18, 19 year old. There was no moral commitment in this. There was only this idea that these were the enemy and you're living in an area where you don't know anyone and where they don't like you anyway. Report an error in the passage at 42:47 Highlight the passage at 42:47

43:25 And so there was just all the conditions for fear, For revenge, for slaughter, for brutality. And yet there were several cases of, like one man was a black man from a place like Alabama. And he was about 18 at the time. And he was kind of simple in a way, not a very kind of complicated character. And he said, I wouldn't shoot because I knew it was wrong. Killing people is wrong, so I wouldn't do it. And you can see 20 years later that he had, and he's working in some kind of warehouse in Alabama, but he had some kind of moral integrity that 20 years later he could respect himself. Report an error in the passage at 43:25 Highlight the passage at 43:25

44:18 And he had not been destroyed by anything in that. There is another case of a man, another black man, who went in there and got caught up in this slaughter and just started shooting everyone. And he was, they showed him sitting there in his armchair, sitting like this, a table filled with kind of pills and medicines and he's suicidal and he's... Report an error in the passage at 44:18 Highlight the passage at 44:18

44:44 And he's just trying to knock himself out with drugs. And he's got these scrapbooks and pictures of the people he killed. And he keeps looking at these pictures of the people he's killed. And he said, I'll never forget it. And he's haunted, obviously haunted like the Furies in Greek myth, with just the fear and guilt of having... Report an error in the passage at 44:44 Highlight the passage at 44:44

45:11 He committed all this slaughter, you see. So then you see that there were a case of two men, one who had a moral commitment and said, killing people is wrong, no matter who they are. So he wouldn't do it. The other got caught up in the excitement because that kind of scene is exciting to the mind. There's a lot of fear and there's... Report an error in the passage at 45:11 Highlight the passage at 45:11

45:41 You know, and you're conditioned, you've been given weapons, and you've got the right to kill anything you want. There's nobody going to say that you've committed murder. It's considered what everyone is supposed to be doing. But then, this was a good example of the resultant karma, where the one man that didn't do it because of his commitment to morality, 20 years later seemed to be, you know, fairly healthy and And Honourable Pertham, the other, you know, obviously a total, you know, obsessed, frightened and miserable wretch. Report an error in the passage at 45:41 Highlight the passage at 45:41

46:22 And this is where, say, in all these, like terrorism and all the things that are going on now and the superpower and the third world and all of these relationships, there's not any kind of real moral concern. Report an error in the passage at 46:22 Highlight the passage at 46:22

46:42 There is slightly, but it's not the priority. But it's in that moral commitment that we have our safety, where we will do the right things. And that's where our humanity lies, is there. Because, like all of us here, we may not agree on political issues or social issues, economic issues. Thank you. Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 46:42 Highlight the passage at 46:42

47:14 Thank you. have all our different views about this and that, but if we agree to Report an error in the passage at 47:14 Highlight the passage at 47:14

47:24 respect that we can put up with each other's particular idiosyncrasies and views and opinions there is a foundation for trust. Report an error in the passage at 47:24 Highlight the passage at 47:24

47:37 And therefore, there's a lot you don't have to worry about. Where if we don't have that foundation, then, you know, if you're living in a den of thieves, you've always got to keep watching. You've got to spend all your time guarding your possessions because the minute you're not really looking, they'll be gone. I mean, you've got to spend your whole life just trying to hold on to everything and never develop anything beyond that. Report an error in the passage at 47:37 Highlight the passage at 47:37

48:04 These are humanity. If we're going to develop, right now, the real possibility that needs to be raised up is not on material development, but on moral commitment. Like the Buddhist five precepts, very good standard. And then that would, I mean... Report an error in the passage at 48:04 Highlight the passage at 48:04

48:35 You know, at least the first precept, not to kill human beings with intention. That would make an enormous improvement in the Middle East and Israel and with Timor and Africa and all the rest. Not to mention Britain and the United States. Just to refrain from... Making that a strong priority, you know, exalt that, non-violence towards other human, just human beings. I'm not getting too fussy right now. Report an error in the passage at 48:35 Highlight the passage at 48:35

49:14 Make it as kind of simple as that. Then there would, you know, that would be, and also with regards to the world's population, you know, like not lying and not stealing. And sexual morality, not being responsible for what we do, for our sexuality, rather than just irresponsible, where people are just breeding indiscriminately and babies being born and aborted and all kinds of really horrible situations taking place where there's no proper... Report an error in the passage at 49:14 Highlight the passage at 49:14

50:00 Concern for family, for environment, for raising children, for providing that which is really going to benefit and allow these children to develop as human beings. It's more sexist seen as just a personal right for pleasure. So there's this kind of selfishness and lack of responsibility for our actions. Report an error in the passage at 50:00 Highlight the passage at 50:00

50:30 and I don't see any hope for the world if that is not addressed now we really have to learn how to live with each other not a matter of destroying you know trying to All of us have to... Indians that's not it you know try to make you can only have one child and so forth it really has to be much more all of us have to To really assume a moral perspective in which war is absolutely unthinkable. Report an error in the passage at 50:30 Highlight the passage at 50:30

51:07 We can do this. I mean, this is the great gift of our humanity. We can decide to do this. You see, if we were just animals, we couldn't decide that. It is animal world survival of the fittest. You can't get a fox. And a rabbit to sit down and decide not to kill. You know, it's beyond their ability. But we can actually decide. Report an error in the passage at 51:07 Highlight the passage at 51:07

51:37 You and I can decide. During our lifetime, we're not going to kill each other. Sometimes we might feel like it. Report an error in the passage at 51:37 Highlight the passage at 51:37

51:47 That's fair enough. But we are not going to do it. We intend to do that. And this needs to be... By the way... Report an error in the passage at 51:47 Highlight the passage at 51:47

51:56 It's held up as a great gift we have, rather than just seeing it as one of those moral rules for grandmother. It's seen as a great honor that we can... I mean, I see it as a great honor to have this ability to consciously decide not to destroy life intentionally. Report an error in the passage at 51:56 Highlight the passage at 51:56

52:23 Unintentionally, we can't help it. Part of our life does mean that other forms are going to die because of our existence, but that's not done with intention. It's just out of malevolent destructiveness. So this is where the intention is made not to kill another human being. For a monk, we make the intention not to kill sentient beings, but I wouldn't expect... Report an error in the passage at 52:23 Highlight the passage at 52:23

52:56 I wouldn't put that on humanity in general at this time. They need to just get to the non-killing of other humans. Report an error in the passage at 52:56 Highlight the passage at 52:56

53:16 Oh, it's Report an error in the passage at 53:16 Highlight the passage at 53:16

53:21 obviously an advanced cat. Report an error in the passage at 53:21 Highlight the passage at 53:21

53:28 Yes? Report an error in the passage at 53:28 Highlight the passage at 53:28

53:39 morality is just ultimately then a sort of social construct rooted in self-interest or the interest of the community, or is it just kind of that typical sort of out there in the universe? I see it as what our humanity is about, really. It's the foundation of being human, which means that until we are responsible for our actions, then we're not really human. Report an error in the passage at 53:39 Highlight the passage at 53:39

54:11 We're merely kind of following instinctual behavior or passion. But because the human, the great gift of being human, which not all people who think they're human really, you know, because you think of them it doesn't mean you really are, that the actual foundation of humanity, of being human, lies in morality, our willingness to be responsible for what we do and what we say. And this should be... Report an error in the passage at 54:11 Highlight the passage at 54:11

54:45 And this isn't just for selfish interest or for just, you know, just as a society, because one sees it as a great gift in the universe, as a kind of miracle of the mind, and that I have a choice. I can choose not to be moral. I don't have to be moral. I can, you know... Follow my passions and impulses and I can choose to do that. But I choose this because when I do that, I feel it inspires my mind. Report an error in the passage at 54:45 Highlight the passage at 54:45

55:30 I can respect myself. I can respect, I feel a sense of connection to other beings. Like my relationship with others then is not based on Report an error in the passage at 55:30 Highlight the passage at 55:30

55:45 or on exploitation, but on respect their ability to choose and for their So that you can, you know, you begin to draw out the human side, the humane side of humanity this way. Well, materialism and competition and all this tend to bring out You know, our arrogance and our greediness and we, you know, selfishness, thinking of me first and get what you can for yourself. Report an error in the passage at 55:45 Highlight the passage at 55:45

56:27 But that is, that basically sinks down into survival of the fittest again. Where me first is like, I'm going to survive, you know, what happens to you is your business, but I'm going to see that I make it. It puts me back into that realm of the animal survival syndrome. And I do think that we haven't valued morality, haven't seen it as a gift. Report an error in the passage at 56:27 Highlight the passage at 56:27

57:03 We see it as an imposition. Like the God commanding, thou shalt not kill, is one way, is a kind of imperative. imperative attempt. Report an error in the passage at 57:03 Highlight the passage at 57:03

57:15 If you go against these commandments, then I'm going to punish you. So that's the reward-punishment type of morality. Then, say, the Buddhist morality isn't a commandment or an imperative, but they're precepts, so that you're encouraged to take these precepts. You're not commanded to keep them. So like in any Buddhist group, or in Buddhist countries, or if morality is taught properly, then it's encouraged, but it's never commanded, or it's never forced on you. Report an error in the passage at 57:15 Highlight the passage at 57:15

58:01 So then you start choosing morality rather than being moral because you're afraid of being punished for being immoral. Now that's raising you up. Report an error in the passage at 58:01 Highlight the passage at 58:01

58:14 Then, if you choose to be moral, then it really is something that you love. You're choosing it because you love morality and you appreciate it, not because you're frightened of being punished. Report an error in the passage at 58:14 Highlight the passage at 58:14

58:30 Then you take on the responsibility for your life because that is a beautiful thing to do, not because you're commanded to do it. punished. that, that is a, you Report an error in the passage at 58:30 Highlight the passage at 58:30

58:42 So this is where this kind of leading onward, like the dharma and the Buddhist teaching, is a sense of leading onward and encouragement, and it's always asking us to rise up. It's not pushing us or forcing us. And then you bring out the better quality in humanity. Like if morality is forced on you, you feel oppressed by it. Report an error in the passage at 58:42 Highlight the passage at 58:42

59:10 Like Victorian morality, wasn't it? It was oppressive. It was shoved down your throat, and you were really derided and ostracized and condemned for immorality. And so, you say, in Europe, in America, we all look upon moral precepts, moral commandments as oppressive things. Report an error in the passage at 59:10 Highlight the passage at 59:10

59:41 The preacher coming at you with a strong line and imposing his will upon you with the threats of hell if you break the moral laws. And there's something in you, in me anyway, that rebels against that. Because it's patronizing and it's tyrannical. Report an error in the passage at 59:41 Highlight the passage at 59:41

1:00:04 Even though moral precepts are good, if they're forced down your throat, that's tyranny, isn't it? Report an error in the passage at 1:00:04 Highlight the passage at 1:00:04

1:00:28 the earlier you take that decision in your life, more likely it is to stick. And the longer you leave it, the more difficult it becomes. Report an error in the passage at 1:00:28 Highlight the passage at 1:00:28

1:00:39 Conversely, the longer you have that decision and live by that code, the less likely you are to want to lose it pretty quickly. Well, Report an error in the passage at 1:00:39 Highlight the passage at 1:00:39

1:00:55 I think like in the, that, like even though I came from a Christian background, and my parents were very moral, very good people, they weren't tyrants. Report an error in the passage at 1:00:55 Highlight the passage at 1:00:55

1:01:15 I was anybody have any comments about that current paradox? Report an error in the passage at 1:01:15 Highlight the passage at 1:01:15

1:01:18 I mean, my early life had that security of a family and parents you could trust and things like that. So that's, I mean, life is difficult enough, even if you come from a good family. I mean, life has not been particularly easy for me. It's not that it's been smooth sailing, but it certainly gave me, A foundation that I'm very grateful for, even on the level of commandments. But then, so I mean, even the commanding of morality is better than just ignoring it. Report an error in the passage at 1:01:18 Highlight the passage at 1:01:18

1:02:05 But then, now I'm saying, I mean, I feel it's a time where you can encourage people. Like here in Britain, in this country, you don't... Most people that I meet anyway, the people I come in contact with, they don't need to be commanded. They're quite open and reflective already. They can figure it out for themselves. So you're just trying to encourage or put good suggestions or maybe get them to look at things in a different way than they are looking at them or encourage their already good tendencies. Report an error in the passage at 1:02:05 Highlight the passage at 1:02:05

1:02:26 bandit, Report an error in the passage at 1:02:26 Highlight the passage at 1:02:26

1:02:50 Rather than tell them what they should do. And in monastic life, you know, it's interesting because we have a very high standard of discipline in Buddhist monasticism. And how many monks and nuns take the rules as if they were imperatives. Their tendency is to take rules as Just the idea of rules are commandments. And the idea of... But actually, they're not really rules. They're precepts. Report an error in the passage at 1:02:50 Highlight the passage at 1:02:50

1:03:31 They're standards that you adopt and work from. So then they help you through meditation. They're helpful precepts rather than commandments and rules that you have to keep. And yet, the tendency of most people... Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 1:03:31 Highlight the passage at 1:03:31