← B. Alan Wallace

Dzogchen Retreat 2015 - Realising our true nature (part 13)

B. Alan Wallace · 2015 · 1 h 38 min · Vajrayana Institute via Internet Archive

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  • 30:53

    You're not trying to subdue the thoughts. You're not trying to make them go down, to subside, to be fewer and so forth. In fact, you just let them go free flow. So now we see, yeah, free flow. No releasing of them, no suppressing them, no blocking them, nothing at all. It's just letting the thoughts flow unimpededly. And then you say, well, why isn't that just daydreaming? Isn't that just part of the problem? And that would be a very good question.

  • 45:52

    There's nothing wrong with that. And also the words awareness, which is rikpa in Tibetan, and mind, which is quite uniformly translated as citta or sem in Tibetan, translated as mind, they'll often have somewhat different connotations depending on context. Not so much philosophical debate, but just context, like mind your head. so

  • 1:03:44

    Then this coarse mind dissolves into the substrate consciousness. But now I'm going to give you a break. Substrate consciousness is exactly the same as the subtle continuum of mental consciousness, which is affirmed in galupa, which is never refuted in prasangaka. And if you study Theravāda, then it turns out that that substrate consciousness, a.k.a. subtle continuum of mental consciousness, they don't call it either of those in the Theravāda tradition, they call it the bhavaṅga, which means grounded becoming. And it's the dimension of consciousness that's left when you are sound asleep, deep dreamless sleep, that's all that's left, but you have more consciousness than a pair of eyeglasses because this has none.

  • 1:06:20

    So that's substrate consciousness. And so now to relate it to your question about the dying process, I can tell you exactly. And that is you know about the whole dissolution of the five senses, the dissolution of the race. The cognitive processes of memory and so forth and so on, the white appearance, the red appearance, and then you have the blackout, the dark near attainment. You know about that. Well, when you hit the dark near attainment, all that remains is the Subtory Consciousness. And that's a subtle continuum of mental consciousness. But then it gets even more interesting than that. And that is ordinary people. And this has to do with the tricycle.

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· · ·

25:53 So let's begin the question and answer period once again with a focus on practice. And if I could invite, first of all, people who have not had a hand up for questions, observations, anything you'd like to share. Yes, please. Report an error

26:14 Stuart, yes. Report an error

26:22 Yeah, Report an error

26:33 that's very common. Stuart, yes. Stuart, yes. A second question about Report an error

26:41 I guess if I imagine it, it's like my mind's in the room and there's books on a bookshelf and I just pull a book off the bookshelf and start reading it and get involved. Yeah, sure. A lot of short stories. A lot of short stories. Not many novels. Report an error

27:00 I guess it's, yeah, just additional strategies, like, you know, is it just a matter of just pulling yourself back? Just sort of telling yourself, you will get better at this. Report an error

27:16 Sure. At the same time, we want to use all the creativity, the intelligence we can, approach it in any way that is effective. And so I haven't emphasized it much except for just one method, mindfulness of breathing. But I think I might have mentioned, I say it a lot, that the Buddha, the historical Buddha, taught many different methods for shamatha, actually dozens of them. Report an error

27:39 And this mindfulness of breathing, that's the one that he emphasized more than any other. And he taught it especially for people who are very strong in rumination, let's call it that, rumination. And so it's very widely practiced and it's been practiced ever since the time of the Buddha, practiced in all schools of Buddhism. And so that's the one method that's especially helpful in just calming the discursive mind. Report an error

28:02 And it's gentle. It doesn't tighten you up, it doesn't wrap you up in knots if you approach it sensibly. And so you might want to experiment a little bit more with this, you know, as we did, we ran through it, I ran through it quite quickly a couple of sessions ago, where we started with mindfulness of the whole body, you know, not trying to balance between stillness and there just, okay, just attend to the body and attend to the sensations of the breath throughout the whole body, you know. Report an error

28:27 And that's very grounding, very grounding. And especially if you introduce that rhythm, that can be very helpful, the rhythm of releasing with every out-breath. Not spacing out or going diddly-doo like that, but just releasing while gently sustaining the mindfulness of the sensations of the respiration of the body. Report an error

28:46 So that can be, it's a bit diffuse, but it's not vague or spaced out. You know, but it's just not tight. It's not tightly focused. And then one practice that is especially helpful in this particular disregard is rise and fall of the abdomen. And again, when I'm teaching just a whole week of shamatha, then we'll spend more time on that. Report an error

29:06 But the abdomen, it's kind of nice and chunky. It's kind of big. It's a good large target, even if you're not part-bellied or anything. But it's a lot of sensation there. And so you don't have to be really hyper-vigilant to be aware of the breath going in and out. And it's also bringing the attention down. Report an error

29:25 And that's very helpful for stabilizing. Then if on top of that, you want to introduce counting. And I mentioned that only very, very briefly as well. There are different methods. But one that I just translated to text recently, it came up there, where it just, I was giving the teachings, I think it was there in the Kama Chame, of just counting one to ten, one to ten. Report an error

29:47 And that is just at the end of each inhalation, just count one and then two. And in between counts, just try to be as quiet as possible. So it makes a whole bunch of short sessions, so to speak, in between counts. And only one to ten, and then you go right back to one again. So in terms of sheer, flat out, I'd like my mind to be quieter, that's a very good technique. Very practical, robust, kind of just very straightforward. Report an error

30:13 And if that's going well, then you can slowly, at your own leisure, elevate the focus of attention up here to the nostrils. You can still do it with counting if you find it helpful. So all of that is kind of just a very effective, head-on way of gently and just perseveringly. Just releasing thoughts, releasing thoughts with a very skillful means. So there's that. But then if one can be very patient, and it just flat out takes a lot of patience, then there's this method that I just introduced today where you're actually not trying. Report an error

30:46 It's a subtler challenge. And it's an interesting challenge too. And this method that I introduced today... You're not trying to subdue the thoughts. You're not trying to make them go down, to subside, to be fewer and so forth. In fact, you just let them go free flow. So now we see, yeah, free flow. No releasing of them, no suppressing them, no blocking them, nothing at all. It's just letting the thoughts flow unimpededly. Report an error

31:12 And then you say, well, why isn't that just daydreaming? Isn't that just part of the problem? And that would be a very good question. And what makes it not just daydreaming, because you certainly didn't need to come here for a week to learn about how daydreaming, you already know how to do that. But the subtlety there is to allow the thoughts to flow unimpededly and even while they're flowing unimpededly and maybe with a lot of volume, just a lot of traffic. Report an error

31:37 All of the emphasis is on just sustaining that unwavering awareness. So it's coming up and coming up and this is coming up and that's coming up and here's another short story and there's some emotion coming up and there's a memory coming up. And you just let it all flow, unimpeded, unrestrained. But instead of being carried away and carried away and carried away, which is what happens in rumination and daydreaming, you're just watching the show. So that's a subtler approach. Report an error

32:06 It's one that gives rise to a lot of insight, very practical in daily life. And this is why we'll spend a couple of days on this one. Here's a psychological insight independent of Buddhism from people like Paul Ekman, world-class affective psychologist. And he emphasizes, as a man who spent about 40 years in highly successful research on emotions, done groundbreaking work, that one of the most important faculties we can develop is this metacognitive awareness to be aware of emotions and so on. Report an error

32:42 When they arise, as quickly as possible when they arise, and before they manifest in behavior, before we say something with an emotion, before we do something emotionally. Report an error

32:54 In principle, there's nothing wrong with that. If you get really, really, really happy and you just start singing or laughing or joking around, you're just so full of joy, let it flow out. There's no damage to that. But if a really mean-spirited attitude arises, maybe resentment or bitterness, there's a good word. Isn't that a nasty word? Bitterness. We all know what it means. Report an error

33:15 But if a real sense of bitterness arises and you want to say something really sharp and kind of mean-spirited and kind of want to get it out, you feel the person deserves it, that's probably one of those things best to keep to oneself. Less damage. And so how can we possibly develop that ability? That everything we feel doesn't just automatically come out the mouth. Report an error

33:35 And it's not so much by mindfulness or breathing. I mean, that can be very good for calming in the mind. But even in the midst of strong emotions coming up, and they'll be triggered by, we never know when, even by memories that can be triggered. But when emotions, especially the destructive kind or the afflictive kind, when they come up, if we can have that vigilance, that inwardly directed vigilance to see the emotion coming up and recognize it. Report an error

34:01 And then have the possibility of making a wise choice. Here's an emotion I think probably better kept to myself. And let it subside. It's not a matter of suppressing it, repressing it and doing anything unwholesome. It's just saying, this is something better not to share. This is not the best of me. This is not the best of what I have to offer. This is going to pass. And when this bitterness, just take one example, when this bitterness passes, then maybe there's something to express, maybe something to share with another person. Report an error

34:30 But not with a bitter mind. When I've returned to equanimity, there's a bit of kindness there, a bit of compassion, and I'm still attending to that which earlier aroused bitterness, and I'll be able to say something I won't regret. Report an error

34:43 I just found that to be so wise. I might come back to it later on, but this is from my very esteemed colleague and friend, Paul Ekman. And how can we cultivate that ability? Because he, as a psychologist, said this can be cultivated and it's very important to do so. And here we are just coming from the inside out. Report an error

35:02 So that's one reason to not be in such a hurry, and I totally understand it, but not to be in such a hurry to get the mind to calm down, but be in more of a hurry to, even when the mind's not calm, to be aware of what's coming and arising and arising without being swept away by it. That's a subtler skill. Now what happens? Report an error

35:22 If you do persevere, it does take some patience, but if you do persevere and you just get better and better at it, then what does happen is this obsessive, compulsive flow of thought, it actually does subside. It doesn't simply continue unabated as you get to be 40 and 50 and 60 and still the same thing. Report an error

35:45 It's not true. It actually does calm down. But you have to double benefit. Developing this kind of this watchtower, this lighthouse in the midst of a very, sometimes very stormy ocean. But that lighthouse just stands and it stands and it stands. Sometimes calm seas, sometimes it's a hurricane or a typhoon, but it's standing. And so you're getting two benefits there. You're building your lighthouse, which is there, solid, no matter what happens. Report an error

36:12 And over time, the seas do calm. Double whammy. Mindfulness of breathing also leads to shamatha. But there are two somewhat different strategies. And I'm going on and on here. But there's a combination plate I really like. I've been teaching it a long time. I've practiced it. And a lot of other people have found it helpful as well. So you might try it. Because it's good to break it up a bit. Not just get caught in one, even if it's a very good technique, not just be fixated on one technique, mindfulness or one shamat or anything else. Report an error

36:41 And so one way to break it up a bit, because it's helpful to keep our interest aroused, you know, so it doesn't get boring and tedious. We won't continue if that happens. And so the combination plate I call balancing earth and wind. Shorthand, that's all it is. But balancing earth is this mindfulness of breathing. You are bringing the awareness into the body. It's very good to do it in the supine position so there's just a lot of groundedness and just calming down and soothing and really coming to ground in the mindfulness of breathing that release with every out-breath. Report an error

37:17 And then you can do that in the supine position. And then you have time for a back-to-back session or even two 15-minute sessions. Then sitting up. So now you're in a posture of vigilance, sitting at attention. But you're really mellow. You're bringing that calm, that ease, that inner quiet. And then you slip right up into the sitting position. Maybe you do it really correctly like this. Report an error

37:40 And you still have that calm. And now when these waves of thoughts are washing up on the shore of your awareness, You're bringing to it already a sense of calm and quiet so the waves don't crash as hard and they don't sweep your way as easily. And so that combination of mindfulness of breathing to soothe somewhat, to calm, and then sitting up, although you can do it continuing in supine position, and then with that inner quiet, that sense of ease, then the thoughts come up and up and up and you're more likely able to be aware of them without simply being carried away by them. Report an error

38:15 So you might want to experiment with that little combo plate. The shorthand is balancing earth and wind. Wind is, and here's the metaphor for that. I'm going on and on, but I think it's probably relevant to everybody. The wind, the wind metaphor, is actually from Dujum Lingba someplace in one of his five texts. But he says it's like facing into the wind, facing into the wind of thoughts and memories and imagination and images and facing into the wind. Report an error

38:39 So there's the earth and there's the wind. And then the image I love, because I used to be a very avid bird watcher a long time ago when I wasn't flying myself so much. And the image there is of a kestrel, or a number of birds, kestrel, a falcon, hawks do this. But the kestrel, for example, or sparrowhawk. Report an error

38:57 It's very beautiful, we've all seen it, where one of these falcons will face into the wind, it's called kiting into the wind, and they'll remain really quite stationary with respect to the ground and with just very subtle movements of the wings and the tail feathers, just very vigilant, very sensitive to the shifting winds coming from the front to the side, a bit stronger, a bit weaker, but with just very gentle modulations. Report an error

39:23 They're staying stationary with respect to the ground as they're looking for crickets or mice down there for their lunch. And so it's a nice image. It's a beautiful image, actually. And in a similar way, if you can face into the wind of the unpredictable currents of your thoughts, memories and so forth and be so relaxed and so loose and so sensitive that even when you're buffeted from here, you just... Report an error

39:48 and then you're buffeted from here and just... But you're not swept backwards into reminiscing and you're not sucked forwards into imagining the future. So you remain hovering right there motionlessly in the present moment. That's balancing earth and wind. Yeah, very practical question. Good. Yes, please. Sure, the microphone's coming. Report an error

40:12 Sure. Your name? Rin. Rin? R-I-N? R-Y-N. R-Y-N. Ah, Rin, got it. Following up to the last question, would mindfulness of breathing then be a good practice for dealing with very powerful and intrusive emotions that might come after meditation? It certainly can, because it's so soothing. It's so soothing. It's almost like getting an internal massage, you know, just so soft and relaxing, releasing, releasing with each out-breath. Report an error

40:50 But sometimes the emotions are so strong, they just really... As Paul Luckman says, and everybody says, they get us in a grip. You've probably seen it like a trout caught in the grip of an eagle. Not much chance of escape. Report an error

41:06 And sometimes it really feels like that. Like there's somebody in charge and not me. This emotion's got me. I'm in its grip. And when that happens, we need to just test what is effective. Again, I take a very pragmatic approach to all this. What's effective? Because we don't want to be in the thralls of emotions. It's fine to have emotions. Report an error

41:25 But not to be in the grip, loss of control, just seized by emotion. There's something pathological about that. And so an alternative is to go for a walk, literally. And this is a nice place, very safe, spacious, a lot of place to walk around, open, quiet. You won't bump into anybody. But just going for a walk, preferably in a place of nature that has some beauty to it and expansive. Report an error

41:53 Just walking along and being very present in your body. Because here we're caught up in our heads, caught up in our emotions, our thoughts, memories and so forth. And to go for a walk and let your awareness come down into the body, down to your feet, down to your feet in contact with the ground as you're moving along step by step. Report an error

42:10 And let your awareness come out into space. Because the mind is almost, again, the space of the mind is almost like a membrane, like a balloon. And sometimes we're very spacious. You know, it's a metaphor, but it's a close metaphor. Sometimes we're a very spacious mind. We're very open-minded and big. We're not very perturbed. Report an error

42:32 Big mind. And then sometimes, and Paul Ekman calls this a refractory period, where the mind shuts down, the mind gets small, the mind gets caught in a rut, and we can't get our mind off a certain event or situation or person. It's all caught up in emotion. We can't see outside of that particular groove. The mind gets small. Report an error

42:54 And when that happens, then just do anything we can to help it get big again. So very practically speaking, going out for a walk, and not just walking and ruminating, ruminating, ruminating, because we still could be caught in the same rut while we're walking. But while walking, there's one book called Coming to Our Senses. It's an early book about mindfulness practice. It's actually quite good. But letting your awareness come out into space, especially if there's a nice big space and if there's nature. Report an error

43:23 And come out to the trees, out to the clouds, out to, you have a lot of beautiful birds here. And so bringing the awareness out, bringing your awareness out into the auditory field and being aware of the sounds, the birds and so forth. It's nicer if it's just natural sounds, lovely sounds. And bringing it into the body and the contact with the earth. So really coming to your senses, coming to your tactile sense, the feeling of the breeze on the skin, the sounds of the birds, maybe the rustling of the wind in the trees. Report an error

43:51 The clouds, the sky, whatever's there, and just bringing out, out, big, big, big. And that lets the energy of this very turbulent emotion or what have you, it lets it get more diffuse, more diffuse. Report an error

44:06 So there are a lot of techniques. Here's one more. And that is, find a really pleasant place to sit and listen to some really sweet music that you love. Report an error

44:16 It's not a solution, but it's a really good band-aid. Just some music you love. And it's your call. And then drench your mind in the music. Especially if some music has great lyrics and a lot doesn't. But either way. But especially if it's some music that has just wonderful lyrics. Then you're getting the double whammy. You're getting the melody and you've chosen one that you really love. Report an error

44:45 And then the lyrics may be very meaningful. And just give yourself a break. Just listen to music. Report an error

44:58 Yes, please. My Report an error

45:03 name's Eric. Eric. Thank you. question about the mind. oh. Report an error

45:11 you mentioned a pricycle. the mind awareness in In the center, yeah, sure. And today there was a lot of discussion in about the mind. I just want to clarify the relationship between the mind and awareness, consciousness. Same or is it... Very good. In Tibetan, that's the Buddhist language I'm most familiar with. Report an error

45:39 I'm still pretty fluent there, happily. And in English, as you very well know, the word mind has different meanings, different connotations, awareness also, and different people, philosophers and so forth, will define it in different ways. There's nothing wrong with that. And also the words awareness, which is rikpa in Tibetan, and mind, which is quite uniformly translated as citta or sem in Tibetan, translated as mind, they'll often have somewhat different connotations depending on context. Report an error

46:06 Not so much philosophical debate, but just context, like mind your head. so But I'll respond in a way that's really quite generally accepted. There's always more nuance, and one can write a book on that topic that you just raised, but I'll try to be to the point and accurate. In Buddhist psychology and Buddhist epistemology, the word mind is quite often used as an umbrella term. When we say, I'm focusing on my mind, I'm practicing shamatha focused on the mind, well, That includes any type of mental event that comes up, and it also includes the space of the mind in which these events are taking place. Where do thoughts occur? In your mind. Report an error

46:48 They say that in Tibetan also. So they'll just say, just like we do, where are your thoughts? In my mind. What are you looking at? My mind. Now here's an interesting example of this. same kawaiiwa, karese, same jundas, samla kawaiiwa. Report an error

47:06 And that is, so I'll look at you. So right now, so you've introduced yourself. I know your name is Eric. And so I can say, well, I'm looking right at you. Am I seeing Eric? Am I seeing you? That's a reasonable question. And my answer would be, well, I can see your shirt. Report an error

47:27 I can't see your legs at all, actually, but I can see your shirt, which means I can only see a little bit of your neck and then your head, but I can only see the front side of the head. And so your shirt, is that Eric? The answer is no. How about the front? The front side of your head, is that Eric? No. How about your neck? And that's all I see. I just don't see anything more. Report an error

47:50 I've heard your voice, but is your voice Eric? No, it's a voice. And so what should we say? Should we be really stupid here and say, I don't see you? And that would be silly, because then language breaks down. How much of you do I need to see? But the way we normally talk, and this is where Buddhism goes, how do you normally talk? We're not trying to introduce a new Buddha-speak here. Report an error

48:12 We're just saying, how do people talk? And my seeing your face is quite sufficient. Your face is not you. But if anybody asks, do you know where Eric is and have you seen him? I say, yeah, he's right over there. I was just looking at him. He's right there. And that is an accurate statement. So that's enough. Is your face you? No. But it is a suitable basis of designation for saying you're right there and I see you. Report an error

48:33 And that's good English. That's good Tibetan. That's how we talk. And it is true. To say I can't see you is just silly. There's no point in talking that way. Because we'll stop talking that way as soon as we step out of this Buddha-speak, you know, this contrived speak. So that's enough. That's enough. Report an error

48:49 And faces are really very distinctive. I travel a lot and I continue, I'm blabbing a little bit here, but I meet a lot of people. I travel a lot and it still continues to amaze me now and then just how different faces are and how many different faces there can be. You know, I mean, everybody's got a nose and a mouth and ears and eyes and yet faces are still so distinctive. Report an error

49:11 It's quite, I find it quite interesting. So there it is. So your face is unique. And that's enough. So if that's enough, and it is enough to say, I've seen you, I've seen your body. Have you seen Eric's body? His body is right where he is, right over there. But wait a minute. Is Eric's face his body? No, it's just a face. But that's enough. I can see your face and I can say, yes, I've seen your body. Report an error

49:30 And I've seen your face. I can say, you've seen you. That's all I need. There you are. I see you. That's it. Yeah. So in a similar fashion, when you're observing, Report an error

49:40 You rest your awareness and stillness, you direct the light of your attention to the space of the mind, and you see a thought, right? You see a thought coming up. Are you seeing your mind? Well, is a thought your mind? No. Well, how much of your mind, if seeing a thought doesn't count, then how many thoughts do you need to see before you can say, I've seen my mind? Report an error

50:04 How many emotions? How many memories? How many? Ten or a hundred? Do you have to see all of it? That would be like saying, to see your body, you have to see every single molecule in your body. And if you see all your internal organs, I mean, nobody does. So let's not talk that way. So it's an interesting parallel there, that you can say, I am observing my mind. Every time I see a thought, I'm observing my mind. As in, every time I see your face, I'm seeing you. Report an error

50:27 I'm seeing your body. So there again is mind. Your body is an umbrella term that covers all of the body parts, but I don't have to see all of the body to see you. I don't have to see all of my mind to observe my mind. Seeing a thought is sufficient. Seeing a memory is sufficient and so forth. So mind as a term is an umbrella term and it refers, as it's variously used, to the space of the mind in which thoughts occur. Report an error

50:52 It refers or encompasses and includes thoughts and memories and emotions and desires, dreams. Hopes and fears and so forth, it's an umbrella term that refers to the space of the mind and all of the activities of the mind. And here as I'm using this term, the mind as I'm using in this context, which is very commonly used in Buddhism, is what the Buddhists will a bit more technically call coarse mind, coarse mind. Report an error

51:20 And this is the mind that does arise independence upon this body. And that's been known for a very long time. Just body. Won't get to specifics of brain or cortex and so forth because Buddhism doesn't have a brain science. But the Buddha reported this after his six years of austerities. And he really beat himself up. It was really intense, really austere. And so much so that he became emaciated, weak, and his mind was disempowered. Report an error

51:46 His mind just didn't function well. His body was so depleted, so emaciated, so punished by his austerities. That he was really tapped out, and he recognized that. And that, happily, was when a young woman came to his rescue, literally. And she said, you need some food. And she brought him some rice and some yogurt. And he said, you need some food. Report an error

52:13 And he accepted it. And then he got his health back. And then he restored his health, his vitality, but he saw his mind was depleted, and he let his body be depleted. That's a fact, that's just the way it is. He restored his health, his mind got rejuvenated, revitalized, and then he rebooted, started asking some really pertinent questions, and then shortly after that he did find that middle way and became enlightened. Report an error

52:39 So that mind that became Gautama's mind, he wasn't a Buddha yet, but that mind of Gautama, that suffered, that was impoverished, it was depleted, it was disempowered because he'd let his body go downhill, that mind. This mind does arise independence upon the body. And moreover, now with the magnificent array of extremely rich and informative discoveries from neuroscientists, now they know, and I'll just say we know because I'm listening to them, now the neuroscientists know with a great deal of precision, and I'm sure there's a lot more knowledge to come, the specific parts of the brain, interrelationships of the brain that correspond to or correlated with very specific. Report an error

53:21 They find parts of the visual cortex that correspond to seeing vertical lines versus horizontal lines, to this color and that color, to facial recognition versus this kind of recognition. It's quite brilliant. These are all correlations, right? But they're getting really good at it like nobody else. And so this is showing the correlations between specific activities and parts of the brain and their counterparts in subjective experience. Report an error

53:45 And then it's very well known, been known for a long time, that if you start damaging the brain, Either with an accident or with surgery or with Alzheimer's, senile dementia and so forth, or with alcohol or drugs. All kinds of things can damage the brain. And you can damage it incrementally more and more and more. And then you're going to find, oh, you can no longer see. Too much damage here. One student of mine, a tree fell on his head and a splinter of his scalp came in and severed his optic nerve. Report an error

54:15 So he went blind in one eye. So that's all it needs. In that whole sequence from the retina to the visual cortex, all you needed to do is damage sufficiently anything in that sequence and then you don't see anymore. And for him it was damage to the optic nerve. And so he's blind in one eye. Right. But if he damaged the other retina, he'd be blind in two eyes. And then if he damaged the frontal cortex, he can't think so well. Report an error

54:40 And on and on it goes. And so if you just successively, as a thought experiment only, If you continue to damage, damage, damage, damage more and more, purely in a thought experiment, you know it will happen. Your mind will be less and less and less capable until eventually you just won't have one because it will be damaged so thoroughly that the mind cannot arise in relationship to that brain. Report an error

55:05 That brain does not provide the support needed for the emergence of subjective experience of the mind, in which case you've gone brain dead and your mind has vanished. Report an error

55:19 Now, what's the relationship between that mind that does arise independence upon the brain and awareness? Well, there are conscious and unconscious mental processes. That's been known since Freud in the West and it's been known in Buddhism for a very long time. But when it comes to awareness, without awareness, if there's no awareness at all, as in a pair of eyeglasses, there's no mind at all. Report an error

55:48 But if the mind shuts down for whatever reason, anesthesia, You become comatose, you faint, you fall in deep dreamless sleep. If the mind shuts down, it becomes unfindable. It's not manifesting anywhere. Does that terminate consciousness? It's an empirical question. I mean, theologians can think about it all they like, and philosophers too, but it's an empirical question. Does sufficient brain damage not only shut down the mind, which it does, but does it also terminate consciousness? Report an error

56:24 Or awareness, and we use the words interchangeably here. And that's an empirical question. And it can be and it has been approached empirically, scientifically, as well as for centuries contemplatively. And so this is just something to check. The issue is so important that I think it should be treated with all the intelligence and perseverance and integrity you can possibly muster. Report an error

56:47 Because what is true will become... It's more and more evident if we approach it with great insight and perseverance and an open mind. But research, for example, at the University of Virginia on children who allegedly have past life recall, there's about 40 years of research now, and it's very hard to dismiss. Report an error

57:05 Very hard. It's very easy to ignore, and that's what's generally done. But dismiss? I've just been waiting. What I'd love to see is some scientist who's a skeptic and saying, hey, your research methodology is really flawed, and here's how. I would love to see that. I think they would love to see that. I've never seen it. Never seen it. I don't think there's much to criticize. They're pretty darn good. So there's one that suggests a flow of consciousness comes in, and it's prior to the formation of this particular brain. Report an error

57:31 And then, and that's Ian Stevenson, the late Ian Stevenson, and then his protégés and former colleagues. And then the other side of the bookends is these accounts, and there are more and more of them now, of near-death experiences and post-death experiences. Where the brain shuts down and there's clearly a continuity of individual consciousness. And even in rare cases, out-of-body experiences, where the person who's flatlined is witnessing things, for example, in the operating room, which of course could be a false memory and hallucination, except when they come to again, they report and what they saw and heard while the brain is flatlined is actually corroborated by people in the operating room. Report an error

58:12 That gets really hard to dismiss. So scientifically, we have this coming in that says, hey, the brain is not working, the mind is not there, and yet prior to and after the formation of the brain, there's still something, and we'll call it consciousness. So awareness goes on different levels. And so the coarse mind, when you sufficiently damage the brain, then the awareness that is conjoined with flows together with coarse mind, it's down, it's dormant, it's out. Report an error

58:40 But then there's something beneath that. The substrate consciousness is not contingent upon the brain. And that too is awareness. It really is simply awareness. And then beyond that, where we're heading, the grand culmination of this text here, is going beyond the substrate consciousness, beyond this subtle continuum of consciousness that carries on from lifetime to lifetime, and cutting through to an ultimate dimension of consciousness that is truly transcendent. Report an error

59:08 And that's beyond... When it comes to substrate consciousness, you can say, is it individuated or is it a collective unconscious, like Jung? And the answer is this, it's individuated. It's your own. It's not anybody else's. So that's individual. But when you cut through that, and you cut to this dimension of pristine awareness, primordial consciousness, then you'd have to say all conceptual bets are off. Report an error

59:33 Because whatever conceptual category you try to apply to it, it's beyond them. Which could then make it sound like, well then you mean it's unknowable. And the answer is, yeah, it's unknowable to the conceptual mind. But if your awareness can transcend your conceptual mind, then it's not unknowable at all. Report an error

59:51 It's extremely knowable. But you just can't bring your suitcase. You can't go with extra luggage of concepts, memory and so forth. You just go in sleek, sleek, trimmed, naked. And that naked pristine awareness knows itself. And that is the most indubitable knowing that ever exists. So that's how that relates. Report an error

1:00:21 There'll be more, but that's an introduction. And if this were just a lot of really good talk and it really makes sense and a really good food for thought, frankly, I'd get bored. I'd get bored really quickly. I'd be already bored to death saying the same old thing, same old thing, if that's all it is. But the whole point of this, let's not just talk. Report an error

1:00:43 This is about knowing it yourself. So if I were really hungry and people were just telling me one recipe after another, I'd get really bored if they weren't cooking something. Report an error

1:00:59 So, what else? Yes, anybody else? I will come back. I love your question. But yes, we'll go to newcomers first. Yes, please. Sundu? Sundu. Oh, enthusiasm. I love it. Can I answer that question? I'm not used to the term self-strategic. Yeah, you wouldn't be. Report an error

1:01:22 do we apply that to the dissolution of the consciousness system? Very good. Happy to respond. Okay, substrate consciousness. That's my translation. There are other good ones. This is one I chose. Preference. But foundation consciousness, storehouse consciousness, all basis consciousness, all basis consciousness. Report an error

1:01:49 That's good. But I like substrate consciousness. So it's Alayavich Nāna. Alayavich Nāna. Sanskrit term. Kunshinamshe. But now I have to continue. Because I do have 20 years of Galupa training. And you'll very well know in the Galupa Tsongkhapa he doesn't accept the existence of the Alayavich Nāna at all. This is an artifact. It's a concoction. It's something coming out of the Yogacara school. Report an error

1:02:12 And he gives very compelling reasons for refuting it altogether. It's considered to be inherently existent. Inherently carry all of the seeds of karma. And so much. It's got a lot of metaphysical baggage with it. But that's not what's being referred to here. I will say that with total confidence. The same word, and we have to get used to this, the same word is being used in a somewhat different way. The way that word alayavichnan, or I'll call it substrate consciousness, is used in the Yogacara, or mind-only school, is a way that Dujum Lingba himself would refute. Report an error

1:02:46 This is true. And Tsongkhapa, of course, refutes. For various reasons. But when this same term is used here and in a lot of other Dzogchen texts, it's not the Chittamatra, with all the Chittamatra bells and whistles. Number one, he's already made it pretty clear, just from that one-liner, the inherent existence of the mind is refuted. Empty in origin, location, destination, empty of inherent nature. Report an error

1:03:10 No Chittamatra says that. So it's not Chittamatra. And when he refers, and I would say this is radically empirical. And I've read this account in all five of the treatises, you know, I think almost in all five there are references to it. There's just no philosophy there. It's like me going to the South Island of New Zealand and telling you what I saw and then coming back and this is what I saw of the South. Report an error

1:03:32 What are you going to refute? And I just tell you, this is what I saw. With no elaborations, no interpretation, this is what I saw. Then you say, that's what you saw, that's what you saw. And this is what he saw. That is, when you achieve shamatha... Then this coarse mind dissolves into the substrate consciousness. But now I'm going to give you a break. Substrate consciousness is exactly the same as the subtle continuum of mental consciousness, which is affirmed in galupa, which is never refuted in prasangaka. Report an error

1:03:58 And if you study Theravāda, then it turns out that that substrate consciousness, a.k.a. subtle continuum of mental consciousness, they don't call it either of those in the Theravāda tradition, they call it the bhavaṅga, which means grounded becoming. And it's the dimension of consciousness that's left when you are sound asleep, deep dreamless sleep, that's all that's left, but you have more consciousness than a pair of eyeglasses because this has none. Report an error

1:04:24 So even if I shout or throttle or break or step on the glasses, there's nothing I can ever do to wake it up because it's not asleep. It's not conscious, right? Whereas, it's hard for me to be short here because I still find this so fascinating. Report an error

1:04:40 When you're in deep dreamless sleep, all that remains is this subtle, continual mental consciousness. It's also called bhavaṅga. It's also called substrate consciousness. Three terms for the same thing. But of course, it's not simply unconscious. Otherwise, nobody could ever wake you up or put smelling salts or shout at you or shake you. Report an error

1:05:00 You wouldn't wake up. You want to put smelling salts under my glasses and see what happens? Nothing, of course. You're not explicitly conscious of anything, and at the same time, if somebody shouts, you will wake up. Even more interestingly than that is that mothers experience this, and so do other people as well, but even when you're sound asleep, the mother has a one-year-old baby, she's always underslept, and a fire engine goes by, she doesn't wake up. Report an error

1:05:30 She's totally tired. She's getting her two hours of sleep before the next feeding. A fire engine goes by, she doesn't wake up. And then one-tenth decibels of and she wakes. I think mothers just know that all over the place. Nobody's making that up. But then how could, when she's deep asleep and dreaming, how could she possibly tell, this one I don't need to wake up for and that one I do and that one's much softer. Report an error

1:05:54 There's something there. And that's one example and everybody knows it's true. Most everybody does. And the other one is you forgot to bring your alarm clock and you absolutely have to get up at four o 'clock otherwise you're going to miss your jet tomorrow. Report an error

1:06:07 A lot of people can set the internal timer and there they are. It may be waking up at 1 o 'clock, 2 o 'clock and 3 o 'clock, but you know, still nevertheless, there's something going there that doesn't let you just sleep right through to 6. So that's substrate consciousness. And so now to relate it to your question about the dying process, I can tell you exactly. And that is you know about the whole dissolution of the five senses, the dissolution of the race. Report an error

1:06:33 The cognitive processes of memory and so forth and so on, the white appearance, the red appearance, and then you have the blackout, the dark near attainment. You know about that. Well, when you hit the dark near attainment, all that remains is the Subtory Consciousness. Report an error

1:06:46 And that's a subtle continuum of mental consciousness. But then it gets even more interesting than that. And that is ordinary people. And this has to do with the tricycle. The tricycle with the awareness in the middle and then the body and mind over here. If, as you're dying, Report an error

1:07:05 You're still very much identifying. Maybe one is a materialist. Materialists die like everybody else. And so a materialist will quite understandably be identifying with a body because they think that's the only part of them that's real, right? Well, if you're dying and of course your body is dying and you're identifying with your body, that's me. You're going to be dead because that which you're identifying with is going to be dead. Report an error

1:07:28 So you're going to be dead, right? And that means if anything happens after that, you're going to be out. You're going to be gone. You won't be aware of it, right? If you're identifying with your mind, if that's all you know of, you don't know anything about awareness as something distinct from, something underlying, something more subtle than mind, which is a rising independence upon the brain. Report an error

1:07:49 If, you know, like many people, and you're really identifying with your mind, that's who you are, that's who I am, that's who I am, and then you're losing your mind. Well then, when your mind's gone, so are you. But then imagine... That you are either very adept at or maybe you even have achieved shamatha. So now you know from your own experience what it's like simply to be resting in the flow of the substrate consciousness where there's no sign of the mind anywhere and there's no sign of your body anywhere either because your awareness is entirely withdrawn from the five senses and your mind's gone dormant. Report an error

1:08:25 The coarse mind is just inoperative. It's like you turned off the operating system. You can turn it back on again but for the time being it's off. And all that remains is that it's called then subtle mind. It's another word for it. This subtle continuum of substrate consciousness. Imagine that you know what that's like. Report an error

1:08:42 You've tapped into it. But even better, imagine you've achieved it. And you can tap into it any time you like. And then the day comes that you're dying. Well, now would be a really good time not to identify with your body. Because that's a bad investment. Because you're about to lose it. It's about to go bankrupt. And it's really not a good time to identify with your mind either. Because that's going to go bankrupt. Report an error

1:09:03 So what you can do is say, hey, I'm dying. I want to see the show all the way through. I don't want to get to the end of my life and not be there. I mean, really, to be fully alive the whole time, you'd be conscious from the beginning and conscious all the way to the end. So it would be like seeing a thriller movie or any kind of movie. Maybe it's a drama, a comedy, or maybe it's an action-packed thriller, and then falling asleep during the last three minutes. Report an error

1:09:28 And then, how did it turn out? That would be a real anticlimax to a life. You know, like, you weren't there, oh, you should have seen it. I'm sorry, I was identifying with my mind and my mind wasn't working. That's why it's called the dark entertainment, because it's a blackout. For most people, it's a blackout. They are losing consciousness. So by the time they get there, they know about as much as any of us does when we're in deep dreamless sleep or comatose, fainted and so forth. Report an error

1:09:55 But if you have achieved shamatha, or at least become very familiar with it, then you know which wheel to bet on. Not that one, not that one. You're getting into unicycle mode real quickly. And then you take your unicycle right through. And by the time you're dead, you can be lucidly dead. Instead of blackout, it's very similar to having fallen deep asleep and being radiantly lucid, knowing that you're asleep while you're asleep. Report an error

1:10:21 So then you can see the final conclusion, the final chapter of being alive with this body. And then if you've gotten that far and Dujim Lingba sells elsewhere, you can remain as long as three days in that state. That's not clear light of death. It's just hanging out in the substrate consciousness. As long as three days. Others as long as drinking a cup of tea. Report an error

1:10:41 Short. But then if you're still lucid there, well sooner or later it's going to happen. Three days seems to be you're maxed out. Then your time's up. Your time's up in this body with this mind. That's the subtle continuum. And the bottom falls out of that, so to speak. Now everything's metaphor. But you cut through that and then you open into the clear light of death and this pristine awareness. Report an error

1:11:02 If you've gotten that far and you're still lucid, well it would be a real shame if you hadn't done any Vipassanā or any Mahamudra Dzogchen because you have some flavor of that, some taste of that. Then you'll be able to show off a little bit because then that clear light of death will rise. You'll be able to ascertain that and you'll be able to remain in that lucidly, resting in the clear light of death, which is pristine awareness, and be able to do that for days. Report an error

1:11:28 And then you'll be one of those people for whom the breathing stops, heartbeat stops, brain stops, body doesn't decompose, warmth at the heart, luster of the skin, and that can continue for days and days and days. Report an error

1:11:42 So that's beyond death. And that's beyond the substrate consciousness. So then we have three dimensions. Coarse mind, substrate consciousness, which is still in saṃsāra, but it's the ground of your saṃsāra. And then you have pristine awareness. And that's the ground of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa, and that's transcended. Okay? Did I answer the question? Okie dokie. Report an error

1:12:05 Good. Any more that have not had a hand? Yes, please. How's your cold? Getting better? Okie dokie. Oh, your name? Karen. Karen, thank you. This is kind of a follow-up to these two questions. And there's something that popped into my head when we were doing sessions, identifying sense and then observing . Report an error

1:12:29 Identifying organs. Report an error

1:12:35 Identifying the sensory experiences of sight. Yes, sensory fields, sure. Seen by way of the organs. Report an error

1:12:47 It's 18 Datus, you remember those? There are six fields, six faculties and six modes of consciousness. Oh, sorry, since I just want to get into some background. Report an error

1:12:42 see it. Sure. . . Report an error

1:12:51 Yeah. also to five elements, which - You do? We are created from and our universe is created from. Very much so. So as we detach from that, the awareness is where? Is it transcending the elements or does it go back to space? Report an error

1:13:16 So we're not asking any trivial questions tonight, are we? That's good. That's good. Why waste time with trivia? Good. Report an error

1:13:28 I always like to approach things empirically if at all possible. And one can here. Although nobody said it's easy. And so let's start out with something that we've all experienced. Report an error

1:13:42 And that is what it's like to be in deep, dreamless sleep, zoned out, not explicitly aware of anything, including the fact that you're asleep. Okay? That's pretty much drawing and come up with nothing. If you don't even know that, that's the most obvious thing happening right now. You're sound asleep and you don't even know that. Report an error

1:13:59 Well, then that's really implicit consciousness. Again, not unconscious like this, but there's nothing explicit that if somebody taps you, what do you know right now? You say, what? It wouldn't be anything. So in that state, here's where I find the translation substrate consciousness, because I've used it now for several years, but I didn't have that 10 years ago. Report an error

1:14:21 Where I find this alaya vijnana, alaya, substrate, vijnana, consciousness, I find it very useful. More so than substrate foundation consciousness and storehouse consciousness and so forth. For the following reason, this is straight from Dujo Ningba, from his five works, and he approaches it differently in different works. Report an error

1:14:40 But when you're in deep dreamless sleep, and this also includes when you're comatose, you fainted, general anesthesia, same place you come to. Report an error

1:14:52 On that occasion, where are you, what's happening is the substrate. The substrate. And the substrate, and I'm basically just translating from Tibetan here, the substrate is of the very nature of unknowing. Report an error

1:15:11 Unknowing. A-vidya. Vidya is the Sanskrit for Rigpa, which is awareness. So it's unawareness or unknowing. And that substrate is a space. It's a space. It's a mental space. But it's a space and it's a vacuous space. It's like a vacuum. Of course, it's not shunyata, not emptiness, not dharmadhatu, it's not anything. Report an error

1:15:33 It's just an empty space, you know? But it's an empty space of the mind. And there's a symmetry there. A symmetry in a sense of a homogeneity. No front and back, no sides, no up and down, nothing uneven within its midst. It's a symmetry. And there's a symmetry of unknowing and a symmetry of space. Report an error

1:15:57 And then, let's imagine this is at 2 o 'clock in the morning. And there you are, sound asleep, out for the light, respiration going pitter-patter, pitter-patter, 15 cycles per minute. And then something happens, something stirs. Report an error

1:16:15 That symmetry is broken and you're about to be thrown into a dream. We have about five to seven dream cycles per night, I've been told. How does that occur? Well, this substrate is not just a sheer empty space with nothing whatever it is. That substrate is really kind of the medium that is configured, configured by karmic impressions, by memories and so on. Report an error

1:16:45 And so there's a stirring. Of these karmic energies, you can say karmic energies physically, subtle physical, or you can speak of samskara, samskara, mental formations, mental formations. But there's a stirring, a stirring of them. And in the stirring of that, then step by step, I'll give you a blow by blow account, there's just resting in that unknowing, clear symmetry there. Report an error

1:17:11 And then there's some implicit, that is you can't see it, but something stirring. And the substrate consciousness emerges from the substrate. Consciousness emerges from space. But it's not space as in namka or as an akasha. Not that space. This is substrate. This is alaya or in Tibetan kunshi. The kunshi namse, the substrate consciousness, emerges from the substrate. Report an error

1:17:40 And I don't know why, but whenever I say this, I think the same image comes to mind. Now it's a sheer habit, I'm sure. But it's like taking a very bright, shiny sword, like a magical sword, from a sheath. When it's in the sheath, you look at it, there's no sword there, it's a sheath. There's nothing sharp, there's nothing bright. It's a sheath. But then, out comes Merlin's sword or Gandalf's sword or whatever. And the sword comes out. Report an error

1:18:06 And let's imagine, you know, like a magical sword, it's a flaming sword, it's a madrusha sword. The sword of the substrate consciousness emerges from the sheath of the substrate. And it's brightly shining. In the Pāli Canon, the Buddha referred to it as prasapta. No, no, no, no, that's wrong. I'll get it in a moment. Brightly shining mind. Pabhasacitta. Pabhasacitta. Brightly shining mind. The Buddha referred to that. Report an error

1:18:35 He's referring to the bhavaṅga. But we'll slip back to substrate consciousness because I'm absolutely convinced of the same. This brightly shining mind, this subtle, subtle consciousness, this substrate consciousness emerges and it's the very nature of light. Luminosity. Not that it's bright, but it is that which illuminates, that which makes manifest dreams, thoughts, emotions, colors, sounds, everything. All appearances within saṃsāra are illuminated only by that, substrate consciousness. Report an error

1:19:04 It's primal, it's raw, it's pre-human. There's nothing human about this subtle continuum of mental consciousness, and there's nothing human about the bhavaṅga or the substrate consciousness. It's prior to getting configured as a human mind or human mental continuum. And so I'm using a lot of words to talk about something that takes place very, very rapidly. From this mental space of the substrate emerges the substrate consciousness. Report an error

1:19:28 And now in this continuing, it's like a rock slide or a cascade, one pebble hitting another one. And now things have been set in motion. That symmetry is broken. Because now there's substrate consciousness and substrate. That's broken symmetry. But now something else happens. It's called variously ahamkara. Report an error

1:19:44 I grasping, I am grasping, that's what you're referring to, very primitive, raw and inarticulate. Ants have it, when two ants come to the same little drop of honey. This ant wants it, and this ant wants it, and no me, no me, no me. I don't know what they're thinking, but definitely they want it for themselves and not the other side. There's something, I'm over here. Report an error

1:20:05 And so it's called ahamkara, self-grasping, it's also called klistamanas. Or afflictive mentation. Afflictive mentation. And it's just a raw, primal, inarticulate, non-conceptual coagulation of I am. Report an error

1:20:20 And I am over here and that space is over there. Really primitive. But the rock slide continues. And then out of this comes mentation, manas, or yiddache in Tibetan. And it starts out non-conceptual. But what it is, is now a further faculty is emerging in this evolution. And it is this mentation that has the capacity to differentiate. It's like a prism to which the light of the substrate consciousness is refracted. Report an error

1:20:51 And there's the ability to differentiate this from that. Now, we know we can do that without thinking about it. If I say, Karen, please close your eyes, don't think of anything, I'm going to take your two hands, I'm going to put one of your hands in hot water, not boiling, I'm not going to hurt you, but I'm going to put one of your hands in hot water and the other one in cold water. Report an error

1:21:11 See how long it takes you to tell which is which. Much faster than it will take you to think about it. You have differentiated, but it comes up much later, long before you think it, let alone articulate it. That fast, that's mentation, that's manas, is able to distinguish this from that. It starts out in this evolution non-conceptual, and then as it continues to evolve, then it goes conceptual. Report an error

1:21:43 And this is where those six doors now are refracted and illuminated. But it takes that manas to be able to open those doors, so you say that's color, without even saying it, that's visual, that's auditory, this is tactile and so forth. So you have the non-conceptual, very subtle, manas or mentation, then subtle manas or mentation, and then comes in conceptualization after that. Report an error

1:22:06 And then we're really identifying this and that. And all of this seemed quite clearly. So this is just coming from dreamless sleep to a dream. But by the time you've refracted it like that, you're coming into, whoa, what's up, dude? Seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, here I am, oh, okay, I saw you, blah, blah, blah. And now you're seeing this whole environment, and that whole environment is taking place. Report an error

1:22:32 Where is that dreamscape? Where is that environment? It's in the substrate. It's not anywhere else. It's not in the neuron. It's outside of your brain. It's not in physical space. It's in the substrate. It's like the holodeck if you're a Star Trek-y. The holodeck, when it's turned off, is a substrate just sitting there. Report an error

1:22:50 But then turn it on and lo and behold, you've got Star Trek all over again with everything, touching, feeling, smelling, tasting, everything. Full blown holodeck. And it's a dream and everything there that's appearing is appearing within the substrate. And your awareness of it now is now evolved out of the substrate consciousness. And now this is the mind that knows how to think and remember and so forth and so on. Report an error

1:23:12 It's a rising independence upon the brain, that's for sure. And then you're starting to make long-term plans in the dream and you think, I think, do I want to marry him? And I think I'd like to have three kids. And then five minutes later, you're dead. Because the dream came to an end. And you're right back to the substrate again. And all that then goes in reverse order. Click, click, click, click, click, click, click, shut down into blackout. Right? So there's the little mini-cosm. Report an error

1:23:34 The mini-cosm is it happens five to seven times a night out of the substrate to full-blown activity of the mind. And they're dissolving right back in and eventually comes out and... This next dream happens to be the one that we share with other people. We call it waking up. But the same thing happens in conception, the whole process of conception, whenever that is, and I don't pretend to know, but sometime at or after the egg and the sperm coming, at or after, and I won't even pretend to guess, I don't know. Report an error

1:24:01 And scientists don't really know either, but they know some things that are false anyway, so that's a good process of elimination. But there's no way to measure consciousness so they don't know when it happens, which is a shame. Report an error

1:24:12 If the Buddhists know, it's hard for them to demonstrate what they know. But the point there is that in conception also, the same thing happens. You're starting out in the substrate. That first moment, at some point, here we can say with confidence, some point between conception and the baby coming out of the womb, before then, and at or after conception, I'm speaking very safely now, at some point there had to be a first moment of that being a passenger and not a woman's body part. Report an error

1:24:40 A kidney is a body part. A passenger is not a body part. It's another sentient being, right? There has to be a first moment. It has to be. And I don't know when it is. I don't pretend. It has to be a first moment. And the first moment there would be the substrate. And from the substrate comes the substrate consciousness. And then now in this nine-month evolution, however long it is, then the brain is developing, the whole nervous system is developing. Report an error

1:25:06 And so then you have your human mind emerging in close interrelationship with the development of the nervous system in the brain. And by the last trimester, so I read, try to read carefully, it said in the last trimester, this unborn baby, because it's definitely a passenger now, the last trimester, I don't know any way to doubt that, that's not a body part. Report an error

1:25:27 That's a sentient being, that's a passenger. That it is said, based on really good neuroscience, as they know the correlates, that that unborn The unborn baby, the embryo during the last trimester, can differentiate between its mother's voice and another person's voice. Good brain evidence for that. I find that fascinating. Report an error

1:25:45 Now, how much language does that unborn baby know? I'm assuming none. How many concepts does that baby have? Well, apparently enough to distinguish mother's voice from not a mother's voice. So, quite interesting though. So, that's the thumbnail there. So, this is all an introduction for the next three and a half days. Report an error

1:26:06 Good. Oh, yeah. So maybe one, Andrew, why don't you cap it off for us tonight? Report an error

1:26:22 Hi. The current status of the Shanta Project and the Australian Contemplative Observatory, and what do you see this going? Report an error

1:26:31 The Shanta Project, I guess that word has probably been used in different ways. 20, how many, 1988, how many years is that? 20, 20, 27, 27 years ago, we had the Shanta Project. All of 1988, it was a one-year shamatha retreat. We call it the shamatha project. Twelve people took off one year. Lama Rumba guided them in shamatha practice for one year, and I was there as his apprentice. Report an error

1:26:54 So that was a shamatha project. There was no study. It was an interesting point, though, is Herbert Benson, he's still quite well known. At that time, he was like the only reputable scientist who was studying meditation and medical research at Harvard University. I knew him a little bit, and he knew we were doing this, and he asked whether... Report an error

1:27:11 We'd mind if he came in and studied these meditators for a year. And I was there in the role of, really, the role of servant. I was there to serve Gyan Lam Rimba because he was this great yogi. We had invited His Holiness permission. He came and said, hey, you're the boss. This is a retreat we've invited you to lead. Would you like this Harvard scientist to come and do research? Report an error

1:27:35 And he said, not this time. There was nothing dogmatic about it, but not this time. I'd like to see how the retreat goes without any intervention by scientists. And then once we've done it once without scientists, then it can be done later with scientists, and then we'll have something to compare. I thought it was very scientific, so there was no science there. Twelve months, people meditating flat on Lama Tsongkhapa. That was a long time ago, 27 years ago. And then in 2007, then after a couple of years of planning, then Clifford Serrin, the principal investigator for that study, then we had 70 people. Report an error

1:28:11 In two groups, 35 and 35, engaging a three-year shamatha retreat up in Colorado in the United States. And I was the instructor for that. And we had a very, very extensive data collection for those six months. 22 terabytes of data. And the papers are still coming out. And they have more coming out. It was enormous. The largest scientific study of meditation ever done. Report an error

1:28:35 So that's the shamatha project, that's the one that's really known about. And I have the websites, I think it's probably easy to find, but I do have the URLs for them, of paper after paper that's come out, and they're all first-rate. Really good science, very good team. I think the scientific team treated the meditators impeccably. They're really wonderful to work with. So that was a really good study, and the fruits of that are still coming out. Report an error

1:28:57 And some surprising results as well. Excellent study. Now what's envisioned for the future, so that's kind of old past, recent past, and now present and looking to the future, is something I've wanted to do all along. In fact, when we came up with the shamatha project that turned out two, three-month retreats, I wanted to do three years. And the scientists said, it's going to cost way too much. Report an error

1:29:21 No way, Jose. Not going to happen. We can't get that much money. And they couldn't. It was millions of dollars just to do the research they've already done. Probably five million dollars so far. But what we envision now is finding one or more suitable environments that are totally conducive for people not to go for three months or for one year or whatever, but to go in like scientists and say, look, we're here with open minds, intelligent, dedicated, good motivation, excellent ethics, and we're here to achieve shamatha. Report an error

1:29:52 And if that takes one year, great. If it takes five years, whatever long it takes, we're going to get this job done because it's too important to not do it. Report an error

1:30:01 And in addition to that, we want to invite top-notch, open-minded, critical scientists to come and monitor this using their methods. They can monitor the body, they can monitor behavior, they can monitor EEG. Every six months or so, they could take the meditators to, you know, very quietly and obtrusively, take them off to a hospital, put them in a magnet, an MRI. Report an error

1:30:22 So we can know it from multiple perspectives, behaviorally, cognitively, neurophysiologically. From a first person perspective and from the second person perspective of the instructor, somebody will be guiding them. And so we can call that the international shamatha project and that's in the planning stages. Report an error

1:30:43 So that's a shamatha project and have as many people achieve shamatha as possible, monitor the whole thing so we know and then if we had 10, 20 people achieving that, then we can come out some very robust data on the nine stages of shamatha. How does the brain operate? What parts of the brain are developing, which are active? What are the EEG signatures on different states? That would be fantastic science. And not terribly expensive. Report an error

1:31:07 Relative to other scientists, this is cheap and could be absolutely revolutionary. But we need, just like neuroscientists need labs and astronomers need observatories, you've got to have a conducive environment. You've got to have it. And you don't find them, you have to make them. That's what we found over the last seven years. You have to make them. Report an error

1:31:24 And you have to take care of them and you have to make sure the meditators are taken care of so they don't have to take a break and get work or their visa runs out and all kinds of stuff that I know happens. And so we have a wonderful team here. Charles Potter is very much involved and Rhonda and Claudio and others. Angela, you've pitched in other people and many others who are not here. Report an error

1:31:44 I came to Australia this time for three months with the hope and aspiration that this might kind of kickstart some momentum. And it's happened. Really good energy here, very capable people, dedicated. And it's not about a person, it's not about promoting a tradition or an ideology. It's clean, it's straightforward, it's open and it's interdisciplinary. So I think it's good. I think it's entirely good. And Australia is a big place, lots of empty land, a lot of beautiful land, a lot of good energy, a lot of freshness. Report an error

1:32:15 It's one of the nice things about Australia that I've seen. A lot of freshness, not much heaviness of tradition. Not enough, but not too much. Europe has maybe sometimes been too much. But a lot of good things happen in Europe as well. So it could happen here. There's a lot of good energy for it. A contemplative observatory that can foster that. A mind center, if that happened, would be more a place where ongoing eight retreats, boot camp training could be held. Report an error

1:32:45 So the people could graduate from eight weeks and then slip right into a three retreat, long term. And the pot that's hottest on the stove right now is a beautiful 13-acre or 5-hectare piece of property in Tuscany, magnificently beautiful, overlooking the Mediterranean Sea, 180-degree views, quiet, serene, gorgeous, and it's Tuscany. Report an error

1:33:11 What's that? I'm an Italian citizen. Well, you are to be congratulated because there are various things about Italy. Number one, the Italians. They're so much fun. They really are. They can be so exasperating on occasion. But they're so much fun. And their food is fantastic. And the weather is fantastic. Report an error

1:33:31 And their cars are the most beautiful in the world. Their women I won't even talk about. And the weather is fantastic. And it's right in the heart of Europe. And it's Galileo's home. And that's where a revolution should take place. today, Report an error

1:33:53 We should be receiving, within 24 hours, we should be receiving the final formal document to be presented to the local municipal council and the mayor, saying, here's what we're interested in. We've had a lot of parley back and forth already. I went there for 10 days last December. So the wheels are greased. Things are looking really good. Overall, very sympathetic to the whole proposal. Report an error

1:34:16 We have a very sweet relationship with the nearby Buddhist center, Tsongkhapa Institute. Very sweet, very friendly. Mutually supportive. And so right now, this looks like the hottest pot on the stove. And we could kickstart that. And that would be good. And one more thing about Italy, in conjunction with our nearby friendly neighbors, the Tsongkhapa Institute, is they've been up for like 40 years, very well established. Report an error

1:34:40 And for many years, most of that 30, they've had this eight-year Acharya program, really quite intensive training in Buddhist theory. And they've had students from all over the world. Being able to come there for eight years, which means whatever they've done, they've found a way to get long-term visas, even without being accredited. It's not an accredited college or anything, which then bodes well, because my passionate yearning is that wherever these contemplative, at least in one of the places where contemplative observatory is created, that people can come from around the world and not have visa hassles, because it's a big hassle to have to leave the country every six months and then come back. It just breaks the continuity. Report an error

1:35:17 So I think we have a good chance in Italy. To be able to, in conjunction with maybe Tsongkhapa Institute, or maybe also universities, I have good connections with the nearby university, Scuola Superiore Santana, I know I always mispronounce it, but that's more or less it. Good connections there, they have good connections with the University of Pisa. So maybe in conjunction with universities, we can also make it possible, visa-wise, for people to come in and just hunker down and get the job done. Report an error

1:35:42 And that means conducive environment, good Dharma friends, access to a teacher. And then just do the work until it's finished. I think actually that could really catalyze a true revolution in the mind sciences, to everybody's benefit. I'm not here to beat anybody. I have no interest in doing that at all. I think material is quite delusional, but I have no wish to beat out any materialist or to win. Report an error

1:36:09 If something's true, let's just find out that it's true and then make that as public as possible, whatever that truth is. Report an error

1:36:18 Say again. was not a Galileo's intention to undermine the J.S. and the ego singling the seed of the truth. Yeah, yeah. That wasn't pursuing anti-religion because he's a devout Catholic, but nor was he trying to defend the faith. He's just trying to find out what's true. And you know, overall, it was frankly kind of a blip on the screen. Number one, they didn't really punish him. He just said, go to your room. And he kept on publishing and meeting people. Report an error

1:36:43 It was pretty lightweight punishment, not like burning people. And they got over it. You know, the Roman Catholic Church, it took them a while, but you know, hey, okay, so it's not literal, big deal. Is this in the Bible, the sun rises? Well, you know, that's how we talk. I think we can, somehow the Roman Catholic Church can weather that, you know, and they have. And so, yeah, so the scientific community, if this is demonstrated, that there's continuity of consciousness, that, you know, this is possible, they'll weather it and all they'll lose is ignorance. Report an error

1:37:18 And that's a good thing. That's a good thing. Well that's all. Good night everybody. Have a good night's sleep. Report an error

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Talk by B. Alan Wallace. Original at Vajrayana Institute via Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/Dzogchen_Retreat_2015. Licensed CC BY-NC-ND 3.0. Transcript generated automatically and may contain errors; the audio is the authoritative version.

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