← Emily Hsu

Special Insight 2: Wisdom of Emptiness (6 September 2011)

Emily Hsu · 6 September 2011 · 1 h 45 min · Tse Chen Ling via Internet Archive

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  • 10:49

    So I wouldn't even need the word I. I could just say body and mind are at Sechenling.

  • 33:44

    So how can all of those different things be the I? The basis of the thought. The I is no more than a thought.

  • 1:17:59

    Girl in the back row. The conventional I, now I can't say it, the conventional I that is imputed on the aggregates. Good job. She's still awake. All right. A conventional eye that is imputed on the aggregates. That's it, right? Just.

0:00 So noticing the constant change in our body. It's Report an error

0:09 not some solid unchanging mass, but constantly changing in every moment. Report an error

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0:55 And then noticing the mind, what's going on in the mind, what Report an error

1:06 we're perceiving, sound, Report an error

1:21 thoughts arising, Report an error

1:28 ceasing, Report an error

1:44 saying that thoughts are just movement of mind. So Report an error

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2:36 the mind is constantly changing and Report an error

2:44 the body is constantly changing. Get that sense of the constant movement, the constant flow. Report an error

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3:48 Then bring up the thought of I. Report an error

3:53 I am sitting. Report an error

3:57 I am breathing. I Report an error

4:03 am listening. I Report an error

4:11 am meditating. I Report an error

4:20 am at Sechenling. Report an error

4:28 So just keep going with these I statements, these valid I statements about what is happening right now. So Report an error

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5:55 who is this I? I Report an error

6:02 am sitting. Who is that I? Report an error

6:17 Is it the body? The body is sitting. But Report an error

6:48 then we say, I am meditating. And Report an error

6:56 it's the mind that's meditating. Report an error

7:26 So who is this I? Is it the body? Report an error

7:33 Is it the mind? Report an error

7:40 Is it both? Report an error

7:47 Is it neither? Report an error

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8:47 So if it was the body, I Report an error

8:52 couldn't say, I am meditating. I am thinking. Report an error

9:20 If it's the mind, I Report an error

9:28 couldn't say, I'm Report an error

9:36 short. Report an error

9:40 I am hungry. I'm Report an error

9:45 sitting. I am walking. Report an error

10:18 If it's both the body and the mind, Report an error

10:29 then I and the body and mind would be synonymous. Report an error

10:49 So I wouldn't even need the word I. I could just say body Report an error

10:59 and mind are at Sechenling. Report an error

11:06 Body and mind are eating. Report an error

11:15 Body and mind are male or female. Report an error

11:29 She insulted body and mind. Report an error

11:47 Mind is an accountant. Computer programmer, Report an error

11:59 lawyer, Report an error

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12:31 and also then we couldn't say my body and mind. Who is this I that possesses body and mind? We'd have to say if body and mind were the I, we'd Report an error

12:50 have to say body and mind's body and mind. Report an error

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13:28 Or is the I separate from the body and mind? Is it something different? Report an error

13:40 If the I was something different, separate from the body and mind. Like when we say my body and mind, the Report an error

14:05 body could be, the I could be short, Report an error

14:24 it could be tired, and the I could be alert, Report an error

14:45 be separate from the body and mind. Report an error

15:07 So it doesn't really make sense for the I to be the body, or the mind, or the mind and body, or separate from the mind and body. But Report an error

15:34 instead the I is merely imputed. Report an error

15:42 Independence on the mind and body. Report an error

15:47 Just a label on the mind and body. Or Report an error

15:52 we can say just a thought. Report an error

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17:18 So how was that? Report an error

17:33 Did you notice how sometimes it seems like the eye is the body? Sometimes it seems like it is the mind. Report an error

17:52 Please. I need to know where you guys are at. Report an error

18:01 Microphone. Report an error

18:05 No, it's helpful for me to get comments so I know what to focus on. What's clear and what's not? It was very clear. I liked the meditation a lot. I guess for me, it feels like the eye is the glomming together of the body, speech and mind. That narrative in your mind. That meditation shuts that down and looks at it. It's good. Thank you. Report an error

18:35 Yeah, it's so important to break it down because it does, like the mind slips back in. Well, I notice my mind slips back into thinking, oh, yeah, it's the body and mind. The eye is the body and mind, right? And then, oh, wait, why can't it be the body and mind again? So, yeah, so the approach in this tradition is to go very methodically through, right? Report an error

19:01 Is it, as we were talking about last week, which seems like a month ago. To me, the four-point analysis, right? First, identifying that object of refutation, which is just, you know, to start with just getting an experience of the I that we believe exists. What does that I look like? And we don't have to get it perfectly right now, right? So it might be, okay, well, yeah, I think the I is really my mind. Report an error

19:39 Okay, well, let's investigate. Is it the mind? So just, well actually, just getting a sense of what that is, right? That I is. That strong belief in that I. Step number one. Or is it the I, right? Like when we feel an emotion, like if we feel accused or blamed or hurt, right? A strong sense of I normally comes up. So what does that feel like? Report an error

20:13 Like oftentimes that feels like... Something arising in the center of our chest. So first identifying that object of refutation, that getting that experience of that I that seems to exist somewhere independent of the mind. And then ascertaining the pervasion, which is, okay, if it existed, it has to exist, let's see, within the body and mind or separate from the body and mind. Report an error

20:53 Are there any other possibilities? Like really thinking that through, really reasoning that through. If it existed, it would have to be, if it really existed in the way we think, it would have to be findable either within the body and mind or external to the body and mind. Report an error

21:13 Like if my housemate was home, he or she would have to be either in the bedroom, The bathroom, the kitchen, or the living room. Exhausting. What are all the possibilities? Report an error

21:35 And then if I search in each of those places thoroughly and I can't find him or her, then I can confidently conclude that my housemate is not home. Report an error

21:50 If I look at all the possibilities and I search really carefully until I'm convinced that they're not in any of those places, Report an error

22:01 Then I conclude, oh, okay, my housemate is not home. With certainty, right? If we look carefully enough. So we're doing the same thing here. If that I existed, that I that seems to be this solid concrete thing existed, then it would have to be within the body and mind or external to the body and mind, right? Report an error

22:30 Separate from the body and mind. There are no other possibilities, right? So really thinking about that. Is there any other possibility? Report an error

22:42 And then looking within the body and mind and then looking separate. Effie. Report an error

22:51 So the possibility that what it seems like to me is that the eye seems like it's the internal narrative, like that little voice that has been with me my whole life, right? That's what my eye feels like. And it's even there, like if I watch my breath. You know, there's like a subtle presence of something. So is that the mind? Yeah, so think about that. Yeah, so that's good, right? Report an error

23:21 Okay, so what would that be, that internal narrative? What is that? Is that a thought? Well, it's the thought. It's the speech, I think. Yeah, so what is that? Like if you're, like the narrative that's thinking, I am thinking, I am sitting, I am nervous. Report an error

23:48 At Sechenling, what does that narrative look like? It's good to really kind of identify, okay, well, what is that narrative that you're saying is the I? Report an error

24:05 Yeah, so that would be a good thing to look at, right? Because that's where you are right now, right? Thinking, okay, that's the I. Okay, so what is that I? Is that I within the body and mind? Is it something separate? I think it's the thought process of the mind that you're acculturated to when you learn to speak English as a child, but I don't know. Report an error

24:36 So I suspect it's, I think it's your thoughts, right? If you still your thoughts completely, this is hard, I mean, this is hard to experience, right? But if we still your thoughts completely. There's no sense of I that arises at all, right? Can there be a sense of I that arises if you're not thinking at all? Report an error

25:16 Something to investigate. Report an error

25:36 Is this on? It is on. Don't touch it. Don't touch it? It's working. Report an error

25:46 Okay, for me during the meditation it felt like my mind was kind of pushing back against it, like I couldn't get into it tonight. Because it felt a little bit contrary to my experience in the sense that when I think about, I don't think I really have a strong sense of I in the same examples that you give sometimes. Report an error

26:15 But there's a subtle sense of I. And for me, especially during my meditations and stuff, that I is like this silent, wordless observer that observes thoughts. And sensations, observes light and smells and the appearance and disappearance of memories. You know, it's that silent observer that witnesses, but at the same time is sort of boundless and uncharacterized. Report an error

26:54 But there's something there in my meditation. It's like that spirit or that, you know, it's not a thought, it's not a memory. But it feels like there's something there. And in the meditation, it kind of felt backwards because it's kind of like, well, is it the body? Is it the mind? It kind of felt like those are just labels. Report an error

27:16 Like this is whatever it is, this I and the body is part of the experience. It's part of what I witness. The mind is part of what I can, in my meditation, I can see thoughts. I can see stillness. I can see it's separate from... Whatever this is, but it's part of what I witness. So it seems kind of soft, but it definitely seems like there's something there. Report an error

27:46 For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So then we have to investigate. What is that? Is that the mind or is that something separate from the mind? Well, it's obviously not the body, right? The observer is definitely not the body. But it seems like it's also inseparable from it. Like, that's part of my seamless experience. I can't... It's inseparable from the mind, you mean? Report an error

28:13 Or inseparable from the body? It seems like putting a label on it, like body, is just a label. Like, it is what it is. And if you call it a body, then of course it's going to be different, because that's, you've chopped it apart. You know, like, is my hand... My index finger? No, of course it's not. It's my hand. That's just a part of it. I don't know. Report an error

28:41 It's kind of weird. I can't put it into words, really. I don't know if this will address this, but one thing it said is that we feel so uncomfortable trying to pin it down. Report an error

28:58 We know it exists, and now I have to pin it down? You know, the ego so doesn't want to do that. But that's what we have to do, actually, if we want to determine if it exists or not. So, okay, so let's see, the observer. That's a very common one. I think that the observer is the I, right? So let's investigate, okay, what is this observer? Is it, right, so the mind, the... Report an error

29:30 Definition of mind is that which is clear and knowing. It's the space of awareness in which thoughts, feelings, perceptions arise. Report an error

29:46 So is that observer that space of awareness in which thoughts, feelings and perceptions arise? Report an error

29:58 And you don't have to answer me now, but that's something to think about because Report an error

30:06 the... Awareness is this spacious thing, Report an error

30:14 so we can investigate that. Report an error

30:23 So that would be the mind. Report an error

30:31 So in my search for labels for the experience, what you're describing, that sort of sounds like that process of the innate sense of self, that kind of all-pervading thing as we're looking for the eye that's kind of popping up against our... just how it It feels like awareness. Report an error

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30:49 Conventional eye that's imputed on these experiences, that sense of continuity is the innate sense of eye, that experiential process. Yeah, and that one doesn't exist. Right. Yeah. But that's another name for that one. Yeah, all of these, though, are innate senses of eye. Innate in the sense of instinctual, natural, right? Report an error

31:14 Naturally arising, not something that we had to learn, you know, that we learned in school or something, right? But something that we all have instinctually. So that, you know, that I as an observer is an innate sense of I. But there are others too, right? Sometimes we have a sense that, is it like if somebody attacks me or insults me or, you know, those seem to not work for you. Report an error

31:46 Is that the observer? Do we feel like it's the observer that's being attacked? Or if we think about our self-image, oh yeah, I think of myself as being, what, a funny person, an intelligent person, a well-spoken person. Report an error

32:07 If we think about our self-image, is that the awareness that we're describing? A tall person, a short person, is that the awareness? So sometimes we perceive that I to be the awareness or that witness thing that you're talking about, observer. Sometimes we perceive the I to be the body. Like when I say I'm sitting, right? It's not the observer that's sitting. Sometimes I perceive that I to be my self-image, the whatever, intelligent, kind, well-spoken. Report an error

32:50 Is that the observer? No. Is that the body? No. Is that the awareness? No. What is that? Report an error

33:07 All that is is a thought. Report an error

33:12 Isn't that funky, right? We build our whole lives around this self-image that what is it? Just a thought that we grab onto. Report an error

33:27 Pretty spooky. Report an error

33:32 so. So when we really notice that sense of I, that sense of I is jumping all over the place. It's different in different circumstances. Report an error

33:44 So how can all of those different things be the I? The Report an error

33:56 basis of the thought. Report an error

34:06 The I is no more than a thought. Report an error

34:14 So don't take my word for it, but it's something to think about. Well, it's funny because it's your... You're describing that and your follow-up. I was sort of relating this also that as humans, you know, that we are so arrogant in terms of just thinking that even that this innate sense of I is like, you know, is part of like our fabulous intelligence or something like this. Report an error

34:40 And today I was in the pet store with my dog and there was like the store cat there and I had him do a, you know, Sit, stay and look at it. And even just following what I'm saying, you can see that it's like, I want to chase this. It's very elemental. But the fact is that you can see that he's resisting that whole thing. So even on that level, I guess it's that idea of that, as we were talking this weekend about the innate sense of self that is just part of that sentience, regardless if it's a human or an animal. Report an error

35:20 You know, and so it was really cool when I was watching my dog do this because, you know, I know that he wasn't sitting there thinking, oh, the conventional eye is responding to my DNA to like, you know, have this chase instinct. It was just like, sit. And you could just see it was like, right, don't want to, but you're telling me to. So it was, it's almost the same thing, you know, when we're like, I'm going to look for this eye and it's going to say, but I don't want you to. Report an error

35:44 Yeah, it's so uncomfortable, right? Report an error

35:51 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, and as you're saying, every sentient being has that innate sense of I, and you can see it with animals, insects, right? Like when they're afraid, you know, you can feel that, like, don't hurt me, right, kind of thing, right? Report an error

36:17 They're not thinking, don't hurt the body, right? Don't hurt me, right? Okay, so anybody else? Jeannie. Good evening. When we started with all the eyes, it was like I sat, I walked, I talked, I drove, I own a car, I'm wearing gray pants. And it just felt like all the eyes were stacking on top of my head and it felt like it got heavier and heavier and then the room was filled with all my eyes throughout a whole day. Report an error

36:53 Like thousands and thousands and thousands of eyes. So it just kind of pushed down my eyes and made me cry. to cry. That was good though. But it makes you want to do this to get away from that. Exactly. The motivation. And when I feel the best in meditation and the only way I really can get out of myself is when I think of other people. Report an error

37:15 And then that's like when it feels the absolute best, the lightest, when it's like, it's so much more important. That doesn't happen every day. Sure. But when the heart opens, there's like, oh, yay. But I, I, I. Exactly. It's such a relief. Yeah, that sense of I is such a – like this heavy load that we're hanging, you know, carrying around with us all the time. Report an error

37:43 Exactly. Yeah, I can't – you know, I want to eat a good meal. I want that person to be nice to me, right? I want – right. And Report an error

37:59 that's why, right, cherishing others, right, that's the whole – like the other side of the coin, right? It's like, okay, we work on the – Wisdom side and then we work on the method side. Report an error

38:30 Peter. I was just going to add to what Jeannie said that I think we're kind of raised in the West to think of the eye as this wonderful thing and I know what I want on my burrito or I know what designers I want to wear. Marketing and advertising is completely geared around this eye and I'm in this phase lately where the eye sucks. Report an error

38:09 road. Cheers. Yeah, Report an error

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38:50 The eye is paranoid and the eye gets angry and the eye takes offense and the eye needs to have this, this and that before I go to bed every night, before I go to bed every night. The eye just feels like a burden right now. Fantastic. I know, I'm thinking this might be a good sign actually. The eye doesn't feel so good anymore. Report an error

39:11 I don't like the eye all that much. I'm having an issue with my eye. So I'm trying to just work with it and not fight it and just think it's time for that I to go away. But what about me? As Sogyal Rinpoche says, well, what about you? What is so great about being me? And that's where I am right now. What is so great about being me? Report an error

39:37 Not in a depressive way, but in a like, what is this me that's so great that I'm basing all of this on? That I'm basing all of my behavior on? All of my bad habits on? All of my negative mind on? What is so great about that me? Why do I need to keep maintaining that me? I'll still be here even if that me goes away. Exactly. So that's where I am with this. Yeah. You'll still be here. Report an error

40:07 And a lot happier, right? A lot lighter. I mean, and, you know, you just look at people like His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Lama Zopa Rinpoche that don't have that burden of me carrying around. And just look at how light they are. Yeah. So, Peter, that's such a great sign, right? It's a little uncomfortable where I am. Report an error

40:33 Yeah. And that's, right? I mean, we can't. We can't get this realization of emptiness without feeling uncomfortable. I just started going through yesterday like everything I do before I go to bed and all this like me, me, me, me, me stuff, you know, that I have to do before I can go to bed. And it's like this is this bill of goods that I've sold myself. I can't blame advertising for it because I'm the one that's maintaining it. Report an error

41:06 Exactly. And, you know, and that's, you know, Just seeing how much of a burden and what a pain in the butt it is and what a hassle it is to have this I, you know, this strong sense of I, you know, that we're carrying around all the time is what gives us impetus to realize emptiness, right? It's like, yeah, that really is causing my suffering. Let's get rid of that concept, right, that concept of that real I. Report an error

41:39 And then, you know, then it's a relief, right? Report an error

41:48 Yeah, so I think that's great. Keep going. That was a perfect eye moment. Report an error

42:04 Okay. Report an error

42:31 Anybody else? Leslie. Report an error

42:40 Yeah, and just before you say something, you know, He's doing My eye is very upset. Report an error

41:59 just, yeah. Report an error

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42:43 I want to spend time doing this kind of stuff because oftentimes we just go through the text and we go through the words and it's a lot of words but it doesn't really impact our life. But what really is going to make the difference is seeing how it does impact our life, seeing how it does operate in our life. And that was the comment of a lot of people in this retreat this weekend. Report an error

43:07 It was like it Report an error

43:11 moved to the experiential level. I was like, oh, now I know what you meant when you said that in class or what, you know, and that's great. Report an error

43:31 I find that whatever it is that I've used to define myself, all the different categories of whatever we are that fit into all those advertising or don't fit into all those advertising things, I'm either becoming senile or they're just slipping away. Report an error

43:54 And I'll realize, oh, I don't think of myself as this or that until that moment when somebody annoys me, you know, until that moment of the concreteness, you know. And, like, I can go to work and the things that have been, you know, like, whatever really, it's almost like I'm forgetting them. I'm forgetting those things that I've always had. Report an error

44:25 Find my anger or irritation, just kind of slipping away. Now, you know, I've still got lots of little concrete in this vitamin and I would be willing to bet that it's on a much lower level, even though it seems like really, you know, it's like... Report an error

44:44 Sure, there's so many different layers, right? Right, right, right. So, you know, I feel like it's much less, but it's annoying me maybe even more because, you know, it's a new level of... But I can really see where I'm letting go of all these things and, you know, just being. Report an error

45:11 Great. Right up until when I, like, fell and smashed my body up and, you know, and then, you know, the whole, then it was all about the body and it's still all about the body, you know. Report an error

45:28 But I find that there's, even though that might be a... That thought, instead of being up here all the time, it's just kind of, yeah, I'm broken and I hurt, so it keeps bobbing up, but it's not like right here all the time. Yeah, exactly. All these things are just, they're lower and lower. Report an error

45:58 Yeah, and so it is such this process, right? It just comes up less. But the potential is there, right? It's there as long as we still believe in the existent I, it's there. And like a friend of mine says, you forget about that sense of I and then something happens, right? And then there's the, he says, it's like a jack-in-the-box, right? Report an error

46:24 Then suddenly it pops up. Oh my gosh, it's still there. I thought I got rid of that. We all have our buttons, right? So that one person in the office, nobody else can push your buttons like that person and that person says that thing or it's just there before you even know it, right? Big story all of a sudden. That need to be right, that need to win. Report an error

47:01 Then, it, you know. And not like in a good competition kind of way. I can, you know, I feel that that's deflated and where before it was like, no, this is a non, you know, this is, you must win. And every, you know, you don't ever just like let things go. You can see where that's been deflated. Excellent. Report an error

47:28 Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I've got to. I'm obviously right about everything. Report an error

47:44 Excellent. Okay, Report an error

47:50 why don't we take a short break and then we'll continue with the text. Report an error

48:02 It's a matter of if people want it, you know, that's just... Yeah, Report an error

48:24 there was a good... Yeah, for sure, because we forget, right? So... Yeah, so I've just been waiting. Nobody has requested it, so I thought, okay, well. I requested it. Well, I mean, in the last six months. Oh, okay, never mind. It Report an error

48:48 was a year ago. I think we did it last summer. It was so helpful. I can't even begin it. I remember that. That was the first time I met you. And it's had a lasting effect, and we need a booster shot. Report an error

49:07 All right, I know what you mean. It was really helpful. I mean, it helped us with a lot of . Not like we used to. It gave you really practical skills. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. Should we put a club on the trees side? Report an error

49:27 I can give you one. I've emailed it, but I haven't found it yet. Okay. Well, if I don't find it, I know. Let me know. Okay. I can always resend it. Oh, yeah. So let's talk about, a bit about... Report an error

49:53 So. Somebody was asking about What's happening with the schedule, right? Because I think nothing's on the calendar yet. So next week is the last week of the term, and then we'll take a couple of weeks off, and the first week in October we'll start up again and continue. Right now we're refuting selflessness of persons, and then we'll refute same time, same place, self of phenomena. Report an error

50:25 So we'll go October through mid-September-ish. I mean September. December. Is it October 4th? I don't have... Okay. Then yeah, October 4th. So we'll have two weeks off and then we'll start up again and go until December. 6.30 to 8.30. And yeah, so we'll do like selflessness of phenomena, illusory appearance. That's probably what we'll do next term and then we'll... Report an error

50:59 Do another term in January, which will cover the two truths and some other things. So I'm thinking to finish this spring or summer next year, this text. So there's a lot of juicy, great stuff in here that you just want to spend time with because you may never get it again. Report an error

51:24 So Report an error

51:35 the four-point analysis, we talked about the first two points. Ascertaining the pervasion. So if this real solid concrete, seemingly solid concrete I really existed, it would have to exist within the body-mind complex or separate from the body-mind complex. So the third point is seeing the faults of asserting that the person or the I and the aggregates are the same. Report an error

52:12 So we talked about that last time, right? If the I or the person in the aggregates were the same, then asserting a person would be senseless. It would be superfluous, right? Because it's the same as the body and mind. Or if we thought the person is the mind, for example, then asserting an I would still be senseless because I and mind would be synonymous. Report an error

52:41 You could just use mind. Mind is tall. Mind is sitting. Mind is frustrated. Mind is hungry. Mind would like to get a new job. Mind wants to go eat at that Thai restaurant. Report an error

53:05 Mind wishes Emily would hurry it up. Mind wishes Emily would hurry it up. Whatever it is. It's nice to just... Go through those permutations because then it starts to sound ridiculous, right? Mind has a self-esteem problem. Mind is afraid of, right? Mind is, yeah, Report an error

53:41 yeah, Report an error

53:44 okay. All right, so the faults, right, asserting that a person would be senseless or I would be senseless because it would be synonymous with body and mind or mind. Report an error

54:00 Another fault was there would be many selves because there are many aggregates. If the aggregates and the self were the same, then there would be, since there are many aggregates, there would be many selves. Report an error

54:15 Okay, so we went through those last time. Then we'll go to number four, seeing the faults in asserting that the person and the aggregates are different, particularly different entities. So we are on page, all Report an error

54:39 right, page 270 in the text, in the middle length lamrim text. 270 or, no, I don't think anybody has the Hopkins book, right? Page 270 at the top. The fourth essential point, refuting that the self and the aggregates are inherently different. So if they were inherently different, Report an error

55:08 Nagarjuna says in his fundamental wisdom or root text on wisdom, If the self or the person was different from the aggregates, it would not have their characteristics. If the self or the eye and the aggregates, the body and mind, were inherently different, then they could have different characteristics. Report an error

55:35 Like, for example, David and Joe are different entities. Report an error

55:47 Joe could be tall, sorry David, and David can be short. Right, it is short, right? Report an error

56:01 David could be nearsighted and Joe cannot be nearsighted, right? Because they're different entities, they can have different characteristics. Report an error

56:11 So similarly, if the self and the aggregates were different entities, then they could have different characteristics, right? The self could be smart and the mind could be stupid. The body could be sleeping and the self could be awake. Report an error

56:41 The Report an error

56:50 body could be Asian and the self could be Italian. Report an error

57:14 So the body could have black hair and the self could have blonde hair. They could have different characteristics. Jessica. Report an error

57:28 Sorry to interrupt, but when you were saying that, something just popped in my head. What about people who, like, transgender people? Actually, they're in a body of a woman or man and they really, really strongly believe that they are the opposite sex? Yeah, yeah. So that actually does happen. So the body, well conventionally let's say we would consider someone a male, but that person's mind would feel like a female for example. Report an error

58:11 But it's not that you could say the person is female. The body is male and the person is female. You can say the person feels female. I think there's a difference. Report an error

58:34 It's important to clear these things up. Report an error

58:44 That thought of what gender I am is at that point in time the identity of the self in her example. Report an error

59:01 If you examine it... But, mm-hmm. Report an error

59:05 If you examine it, I think that person, quote unquote, would also have many other ways of describing their self. Yeah. And if we get down to like the data kind of thing, like it's not like the person or the body could have one set of chromosomes and the person could have a different one, right? It's just a way that you're labeling. Report an error

59:34 as is saying. Report an error

59:40 So people get what I'm talking about? There could be totally different characteristics between the body and mind and the person. Report an error

59:51 So Lama Tsongkhapa goes on to say, okay, well, if the self were inherently different from the aggregates, it would not have the characteristics that characterize the aggregates as products, like production, destruction and abidance. It would be like a horse, for example, that does not have the correct characteristics of an ox because it's established as an object different from an ox. Report an error

1:00:16 Like, for example, so if we talk about production or birth and death, right? So David and Joe, I would assume, had different birthdays, right? So David could be born on March 30th and Joe could be born on February 10th, right? Because they're separate entities, they can have different dates of birth. If the self and the aggregates were different entities, then the body could be born on March 10th and the self could be born on February. Report an error

1:01:03 So that doesn't make any sense, right? The body could die in 19... 54 and the self could stay, right, could die on, you know, in 2011. Doesn't make any sense, right, for them to be inherently different. Report an error

1:01:30 So further on down in the middle where it says, further, if it existed inherently different from the characteristics of the aggregates, suitability as form and so forth, it would have to be observed as such, right? So if the person and the aggregates... We're inherently different. You'd be able to observe that they're different. Like we can observe that David and Joe are different. Report an error

1:01:59 But we can't observe the self as being separate from the body and mind. It's not like the body and mind can be here and the self can be in the kitchen preparing food. We can't observe the self. Separately from the aggregates. Report an error

1:02:25 We'd have to be able to observe that the body and mind is, for example, one place and the self is separate. The self could be driving home and the body and mind could be sitting here. Report an error

1:02:48 Peter, and then Effie, because Effie's looking. No? Okay. All right. Report an error

1:03:00 Again, just one of these things like with the transgender question, what about a person with multiple personality disorder where there's often a complete disconnect and very distinct qualities between the same personality within the same entity? How would Buddhism address that? Well, we all have that to a certain extent, right? That's very true. But I mean, were they like to go for three years as another entity and wake up and not really know where they were or who they were with? Report an error

1:03:30 And if we think about it, those two different personalities are just labeled as different personalities, right? They're different behaviors that everybody has, some of which are contradictory, right? So we label people who do have split personalities as, okay, well they have two personalities or three personalities. That's one way to label it. Report an error

1:03:53 But we can say the same thing about us. Oh, I have my nice personality and I have my irritable personality, right? My really generous personality and my miserly personality, right? I mean, we all have all of those things within us in different situations and different times. I have my tired personality where I'm cranky and I don't mess with me when I'm tired, right? Report an error

1:04:22 And my... Best personality, right, when I'm really rested and everything's going well and I'm happy, right? So we all have those to a lesser extent, right? So, Report an error

1:04:41 yeah. Report an error

1:04:45 Yeah, and that's all I can come up with with that. But it's not that there are really separate selves. We just kind of label them as different personalities, right? Report an error

1:05:08 If we think about it, I always like to go back to the present moment. Conceptually, we can think of a person in many different ways, but in the present moment, there's only one particular place that the body is at a time, and there's only one particular thought that you're having in a given moment. Report an error

1:05:44 So what is really existing? What really exists is what's going on in the present. Personality is a conceptual construct. Report an error

1:05:59 Person is a conceptual construct. The name of the person is a conceptual construct. Male, female is a conceptual construct. Report an error

1:06:11 Career is a conceptual construct, right? Everything else. But if we go back to the raw data, there's some physicality here and there's something happening in the mind at the moment. And that exists, right? Everything else is, oh, well, looking back in the past, oh, well, you know, they were behaving like this. Report an error

1:06:34 Okay, we'll say that's one personality. And then they were behaving in a very different way. At this point, thinking there was somebody else at this point, so we'll label that a separate personality. But actually, that's all conceptual constructs. Report an error

1:06:50 It's the same mental continuum, right. It's not that both of those personalities are manifesting at the same moment, in exactly the same moment, in exactly the same second, for example. There's just this, yeah. So that's, yeah, that's all I... That's coming to my mind about that. Report an error

1:07:19 This makes me want to ask another question. I can't tell. Report an error

1:07:28 When people talk about people who are more highly realized, like gurus or something, leaving their bodies or projecting or whatever, I don't know how you describe it. Is it the mind that leaves? him why. Like, if... Report an error

1:07:49 People talk about achieving Buddhahood and saying that Buddhists can manifest in many different places and times simultaneously or whatever is needed and stuff. Is it the mind that's manifesting? I mean, yeah, I just don't know. You know what I mean? I'm kind of like, how does that translate to when we're no longer human? Report an error

1:08:20 Because then is it separate? I mean, yeah, that's a difficult question to answer. Report an error

1:08:32 But yeah, I mean, it's said, right, when you become a Buddha, actually once you directly realize emptiness, you can manifest many different bodies, many different forms. Report an error

1:08:46 And generally I think that's... Right. I mean. Um. Report an error

1:08:49 You can manifest many different people, actually, with different minds and bodies. Or, I've heard His Holiness say, and I've never heard this anywhere else, he says you can have manifestations where there are these separate continuums, like if you're manifesting 50 people, you can have 50 separate people that you're manifesting, or you can manifest like... Report an error

1:09:19 50 bodies with kind of a central kind of mind operator. But I've never heard that anywhere else, and he didn't give any details on that, and I don't even know if I remember it correctly, but it was kind of along those lines. But how that all works, Report an error

1:09:42 that would be beyond my pay grade, right? Report an error

1:10:05 And I think that thing about the Buddha manifesting, I mean, I can't add much to it, but, you know, along with that, there's not, from what I have heard, and I'll leave it to that, you know, the mind of those who are perceiving these manifestations are involved as well. So it's a little more complicated, I think, than just like multiple selves. Report an error

1:10:38 projecting outward. Report an error

1:10:44 Yeah, I mean that whole emanation, manifestation kind of area is complicated. There are many different possibilities, so yeah, they can, yeah, let's just leave it at that. Report an error

1:10:58 I don't want to dig myself too deeply in a hole that I don't really know much about. Report an error

1:11:09 There are different kinds of emanations. You can emanate as a rock or a tree. You can emanate it as a person. Or you can emanate by channeling. Report an error

1:11:23 Stop. Okay. Right. Exactly. And I really don't want to pretend that I know or I don't want to say something that I really don't know what I'm talking about. Just send us a manifestation. Report an error

1:11:40 That would be a, you Geshe-la would be a much better person to ask about stuff like that. Report an error

1:11:50 Anyway, so then next in the text, Tsongkhapa quotes Nagarjuna's root text on wisdom. It is inadmissible for the self to be other than the appropriated. So they sometimes talk about the self or the I and the appropriating aggregates, like the self taking on. Aggregates, taking on a body and mind. So here he's saying it's inadmissible for the self or the person to be other than the body and mind, to be a separate entity. Report an error

1:12:31 If it were other, you could apprehend it in their absence, which you cannot. So that goes back to the, okay, the body and mind is sitting here. The self is sitting here. Report an error

1:12:44 If it was the self was separate from the body and mind, then I could put the body over there, the mind over there, and there'd still be a self sitting right here. And Report an error

1:13:04 does that make sense? Report an error

1:13:15 So Lama Tsongkhapa says you should train in order to really gain the firm certainty which sees that such reasonings damage a self existing inherently different from the aggregates. Because if you have not induced the pure damaging certainty concerning the two sides of sameness and difference, the conclusion that persons do not inherently exist will merely be a thesis so that you do not gain the pure view. Report an error

1:13:43 So we need to keep thinking about this until we remove the doubt in our minds. It's not something that comes the first time you hear it. Report an error

1:14:02 If it really existed from its own side, independent of thought, independent of imputation, imputation of labeling, then it would have to exist within the body-mind complex or as different from the body-mind complex. Is it possible for it to be within the body-mind complex? Report an error

1:14:33 Examine all the different possibilities until we become really convinced. Okay, can it be the body and mind? Can it be just the mind? Can it be separate from the body and mind? Just keep checking, keep checking, keep checking until you're convinced with certainty, without any doubt. Okay, well, it can't, gosh, it can't exist. Report an error

1:15:09 Just like the... Report an error

1:15:14 You know, the housemate. You search in all the rooms until you become certain. Let's say you really need to talk to them, right? If you're just kind of wondering, oh, I wonder if they're home. You know, you kind of open a few doors. You're like, oh, it doesn't seem like it, right? But you're not certain. But if you really need to talk to them, right, then you really look, right? Report an error

1:15:42 So similarly. So in order to realize emptiness, we need to do this, like, not in a half-assed way, right? Not in a lackadaisical way. We need to do it as if our cyclic existence is on the line. Report an error

1:16:05 Which is exactly what's on the line, right? Report an error

1:16:11 Yeah, as if the eye was dependent on it. Of course there is an eye that exists, right? But this solid concrete eye that seems to exist. Yeah, that's what I depended Report an error

1:16:25 Independent of thought doesn't. Report an error

1:16:35 Search, search, search. Because this is the difference between continuing to suffer and ending suffering forever. A Report an error

1:16:57 little bit on the line. That's a good parent though. Yeah. Report an error

1:17:06 815. I kind of don't want to start the next section. The next section is settling that the mind doesn't inherently exist. Report an error

1:17:23 Okay, so maybe at this point I want to really make sure that people know, really understand, okay, what is, okay, does the I exist? Report an error

1:17:43 Okay, so the I does exist. What is the I that exists? Report an error

1:17:59 Girl in the back row. The conventional I, now I can't say it, the conventional I that is imputed on the aggregates. Good job. She's still awake. All right. A conventional eye that is imputed on the aggregates. That's it, right? Just. Report an error

1:18:28 The eye that exists is just this light label on the body and mind. This light label on the body and mind. What is the eye that doesn't exist? Report an error

1:18:51 Anybody. Oh, Report an error

1:18:58 you are? Report an error

1:19:02 You have no choice now. That inherently existing I, the big I, the I we believe, you know, solid, concrete, powerful, important, permanent, eternal, fabulous, fantastic. Report an error

1:19:36 So is there an I that exists here? An I that exists here? Report an error

1:19:52 I was just searching for a compliment. Is there an I that exists within the mind and body? Report an error

1:20:06 There's no I that exists in the mind or body. At all? Nowhere in the mind or body? Report an error

1:20:24 Yeah, there's no I that exists within the body and mind. Is there an I that exists separate from the body and mind? Report an error

1:20:45 So anytime you get a sense of the I being within the body or within the mind, object of refutation. Report an error

1:21:00 So anytime you get a sense of the I being within the body or within the mind, that's an object of refutation. Report an error

1:21:20 Anytime you get a sense of an I. Report an error

1:21:29 Yeah, inhabiting the body and or mind, or being the body and or mind, that is an object of refutation. Very subtle, very subtle. Report an error

1:21:52 Anytime we get a sense of an I that's not changing, Report an error

1:22:03 object of refutation. Report an error

1:22:16 Anytime we get a sense of an I that's unchanging, object of refutation. Report an error

1:22:34 Anytime we have a sense of I, it's separate from the body and mind. Report an error

1:22:50 Object of refutation. Like my body, my mind. Report an error

1:23:17 So the I is just a label on an appearance. It's just a label on a movement of mind. Just a label on a thought. Report an error

1:23:40 Just a label on... An activity of the body or mind, Report an error

1:23:50 just a label on Report an error

1:23:55 body and or mind. Report an error

1:24:04 And then due to believing in that label, believing that that activity or that Report an error

1:24:18 mental activity or that physical activity, anytime we believe that that is the I, Report an error

1:24:27 anytime we believe that that is the I, Report an error

1:24:34 object of refutation. Report an error

1:24:45 I is just a label upon that activity, Report an error

1:24:55 upon that body or mind or both. Just a label on an appearance, experience. Report an error

1:25:22 The existence more than that is an object of refutation other Report an error

1:25:33 than or beyond just being a label on an appearance or experience. Report an error

1:25:42 Is an object of refutation. Report an error

1:25:53 Once we believe that that label is that thing, and Report an error

1:26:03 we grasp at that, the happiness of that I, all it is is a label, a Report an error

1:26:22 label. Take off that label, put a different label. As soon as we label I, then there's all sorts of attachment aversion stuff happening. Report an error

1:26:34 That I wants happiness. I doesn't want suffering. That I doesn't want to be hurt. That I doesn't, you know, that I, I, I, right? But it's just a label. Like Report an error

1:26:50 if we replace that label with Lisa, I have a totally different experience, right? Report an error

1:27:03 Lisa is at Sechenling. Lisa's listening. Lisa's kind of hungry. Report an error

1:27:17 But there's something about that label I or me, right? Label that I or me and then, you know, it's Report an error

1:27:35 just a label. A sound, maybe you can say. Report an error

1:27:47 On, right? Independence on that body, mind, experience, activity. Report an error

1:28:04 This gets really deep for me because this is where I get to the point where I'm kind of like, maybe they did refute too much. Because I find myself thinking things like, to the extent that there's no permanent, unchanging I, I. Hurt. Report an error

· · ·

1:28:21 Will never achieve nirvāṇa. If I ever achieve nirvāṇa, it won't be this I, because I'm constantly changing. It won't be me that achieved nirvāṇa. Do you know what I mean? Yep. So what am I doing here? Do you know what I mean? I mean, it sort of comes down to that. There's still an experience, though, right? Like, what am I, you know, why do I do anything? But then at the same time, it feels right when you start talking about Lisa. Report an error

1:28:53 Could achieve nirvāṇa or something like that. In general, I think it would be great if someone stopped suffering and entered a state of bliss. To the extent that that could happen anywhere to anything, to anyone, that's great. But it's not going to be me. Because by the time I get there, I won't be me anymore. Well, think about it, though. There's a continuity of experience, though. There's a continuity. Report an error

1:29:20 so like The Joe at five you experienced, and the Joe of now you experience, and the Joe that achieves nirvāṇa you'll experience, the Joe that will die you'll experience. So it's not this unchanging, but there is a continuity of experience that you'll have, and even though... It's not going to be the same person, but it is the same person in a sense, right? Report an error

1:30:03 It's the same continuity, right? We label person on this continuity. There's nothing that stays the same from moment to moment, but we still have the experience. Report an error

1:30:21 So what you're saying is the view of the Hindus, basically. Well, the view of... Most people, right, that there's this solid unchanging me that goes from this moment to the next moment to the next moment to the next moment that goes from this life to the, well, if you believe in future lives, right, into the next life. Report an error

1:30:46 And then that same me is going to get enlightened. That's what we think very, very deeply, I think. Report an error

1:30:59 But if that self was unchanging, it couldn't change. It couldn't. Become enlightened, right? Because it's unchanging. So what would be the point? Report an error

1:31:16 Interesting, isn't it? It's totally interesting because, you know, and I think back to some really difficult periods in my life when I was totally suffering, you know, sobbing my eyes out every night and just in terrible emotional pain. So I remember that person, Report an error

1:31:35 but I am not that person anymore. It's very interesting. What is the continuity? I have a memory of it. I can go back and relive the experience if I concentrate really hard, but I can't actually be it anymore. I can't be that person that suffered so much at that time in my life because I've grown. I'm a different person. Report an error

1:32:09 So what is it? I can't even get my... I can't even describe it, but it's real, but I can't, the continuity is, that person is gone, you know, that person no longer exists. I am who I am today because that person did exist, but I'm not that person. Exactly. Yeah, it's very subtle. But who you are today is, well, yeah, I mean, you said it already, right? Report an error

1:32:56 Emptiness does not invalidate our experience. Yeah, and it's only because things are empty that change can happen, that function can happen, that we can experience anything. It's true, yeah. So that's kind of counterintuitive, right, to us because we think there has to be a real self to have an experience, right, a real solid unchanging self to have an experience. Report an error

1:33:20 But actually, if it was unchanging, you couldn't have an experience. Right, you wouldn't be alive. It's not our eye that remembers it. It's awareness that remembers it. That's the difference. Exactly. There's an eye labeled on that concept because actually memory is just a concept. It's a conceptual mind. It's the conceptual mind looking at a mental image in our mind. Report an error

1:33:54 The past doesn't exist at all. Except just as an image in our mind, right, as a memory. A memory is just an image that we're carrying around in our mind. And we can never really go back to the event. We can never go back. Every, like, five minutes ago is gone never to be experienced again. One second ago is gone to never be experienced again. Report an error

1:34:17 That Joe from five minutes ago no longer exists either. And the Joe of now no longer exists. And now no longer exists. And now longer exists. Which is so, right? It's so freeing, right? Because we identify so much with those activities like, oh, I really screwed up. Well, you know what? That I that screwed up no longer exists. Every moment is brand new and is a brand new opportunity to do something else. Report an error

1:34:50 I Report an error

1:34:53 remember this friend of mine, he was... In Thailand for a year meditating in the monastery. He was a monk, a Tibetan Buddhist monk. He would get into these big dramas in his mind and all this kind of stuff, get really upset. Then he'd go to the monk, the head of the monastery, and say, oh, I just did this and I just screwed up. Report an error

1:35:19 I remember this about my past and oh, I'm such a loser. The monk would just listen kindly and then say, begin again. Report an error

1:35:34 Put that on a pillow. Report an error

1:35:41 It's all in the path. It doesn't exist anymore. Begin again. We Report an error

1:35:50 don't have to hang on to any of that stuff. Regret it, purify it, move on. Report an error

1:36:02 I mean, maybe it's in another context, but I've heard Lama Zopa quoted as saying, and then what? And then what? Yeah, exactly. I heard your story. And then what? Yeah. Exactly. My Lama used to do that all the time whenever I go visit him. Sob, sob, you know, I screwed up. And then? Report an error

1:36:28 And then? It's good to remember, and you had mentioned before, too, that we need to remember the same for everybody else that we deal with. They're not the same every day. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. Yeah, that stupid thing that that person did or that awful, you know, that. Report an error

1:36:51 You know, that insensitive comment or, you know, whatever. It's like, okay, that person doesn't exist either. That person's constantly changing. I've been using it and I watch that because I've changed how I'm realizing that somebody is different every day. Their reaction to me, I think because I've changed, is more pleasant sometimes. Yeah, exactly. Right? Yeah. Report an error

1:37:16 So going back to the present, what is really... What's going on in this moment? Be in the present and just know that all of that other garbage is just garbage in our minds. It's just a huge story we created in our mind. Like, okay, present, what's going on now? Report an error

1:37:41 It is, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's amazing how much... Garbage we're carrying around in, as John Landau would say, cloud cuckoo land. Report an error

1:37:56 What's Report an error

1:38:04 going on now is that we're sitting here in class trying to understand emptiness. What could be better? We are undercutting our cyclic existence at this moment. Maybe a little chocolate. Report an error

1:38:37 Okay, let's do Shantideva on page 246. Report an error

1:38:58 May all beings everywhere, plagued by sufferings of body and mind, obtain an ocean of happiness and joy by virtue of my merits. May no living creature suffer, commit evil or ever fall ill. May no one be afraid or belittled with a mind weighed down by depression. May the blind see forms and the deaf hear sounds. May those whose bodies are worn with toil be restored on finding repose. Report an error

1:39:27 May the naked find clothing, the hungry find food. May the thirsty find water and delicious drinks. May the poor find wealth, those weak with sorrow find joy. May the forlorn find hope, constant happiness and prosperity. May there be timely rains and bountiful harvests. May all medicines be effective and wholesome prayers bear fruit. May all who are sick and ill quickly be freed from their ailments. Report an error

1:39:57 Whatever diseases there are in the world, may they never occur again. May the frightened cease to be afraid and those bound be freed. May the powerless find power and may people think of benefiting each other. For as long as space remains, for as long as sentient beings remain. Until then, may I too remain to dispel the miseries of the world. Thank Report an error

1:40:44 you. We'll see you next week. Report an error

1:40:58 again. Begin again. I love it. Report an error

1:41:07 Okay, I'll see you back next time. All right, thanks, it's over. Report an error

1:41:37 7 a.m. tomorrow morning, right? Report an error

1:41:43 not see me here. Me? Report an error

1:42:05 right. I'm not going to do that. Report an error

1:42:21 Crayons for a piece of egg. Thank Report an error

1:42:29 you. Report an error

1:42:38 No, we have some. Oh, yeah. You know, I figured I would love it. Report an error

1:42:48 yeah. Report an error

1:42:55 was so debating on it, but, yeah, a couple of things happened. There's someone I need to get in the hospital in Mountain View tomorrow as well. Report an error

1:43:10 Do you live close enough? Report an error

1:43:31 I don't know. Ow, there's a lot more. Report an error

1:43:42 Thank Report an error

1:43:47 you. want to get my shoes off, but I couldn't get over Report an error

· · ·

1:44:21 feels right. Yeah. Okay. Report an error

· · ·

1:45:08 So it's a good time. Report an error

1:45:13 I almost like lost my... Report an error

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Talk by Emily Hsu, recorded 6 September 2011. Original at Tse Chen Ling Center for Tibetan Buddhist Studies via Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/EH_SpecialInsight_20110726. Licensed CC BY-NC-ND 3.0. Transcript generated automatically and may contain errors; the audio is the authoritative version.

Recorded at Tse Chen Ling Center, San Francisco, and archived by the center on Internet Archive. More from Tse Chen Ling

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