Department of Peace

0:00 This podcast is offered by San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Report an error in the passage at 0:00 Highlight the passage at 0:00

0:13 Good evening. Welcome. I'm Dan Gudgel. I'm a resident and a priest here at Beginner's Mind Temple. While we're here together tonight, please stay comfortable. Feel free to adjust your position, change your cushions. Please take good care of yourselves. Report an error in the passage at 0:13 Highlight the passage at 0:13

0:37 I am hoping to leave some time at the end of this talk for discussion. I'll also be out in the hallway after the talk. And after the talk, if you have any general questions about the temple or what we do, feel free to ask anyone who has a robe or a rakasu on. They most likely can at least point you in the right direction. Report an error in the passage at 0:37 Highlight the passage at 0:37

1:07 So I'd like to start tonight first by having us all settle in and feel the presence of this place where we are, right here and right now. And I'm going to talk a little bit, describe some of the history of this place, and we'll just together, bit by bit, settle into being. Here, in the full context of what here and now means, those of you who are online, if you want to do the same thing in your own space, that would be a great way to follow along, and you may learn some things about the place where you are. Report an error in the passage at 1:07 Highlight the passage at 1:07

2:03 So this building that we are in has housed the San Francisco Zen Center since 1969, this room in particular has been mostly like this since then. These are new tatamis, but the general layout of this room has been about like this. Report an error in the passage at 2:03 Highlight the passage at 2:03

2:27 And so the first thing that I want us to feel is the six decades of Zen practice that have happened here. Formal ceremonies, dharma talks by Shinryu Suzuki, Dharma talks by other favorite teachers, ordinations, funerals. Shinryu Suzuki's funeral in this room. Report an error in the passage at 2:27 Highlight the passage at 2:27

2:53 Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people have passed through this room and engaged in Buddhist practice here. So let's take a moment and feel that presence. Report an error in the passage at 2:53 Highlight the passage at 2:53

3:29 Before San Francisco Zen Center purchased this building, This was the Emmanuel Residence Club. This was a chaperoned communal living space for young Jewish women. This building was designed by Julia Morgan, built in 1922 and 23. And from 1923 until 1969, when San Francisco Zen Center bought it, this building housed young women, often immigrants and refugees. Report an error in the passage at 3:29 Highlight the passage at 3:29

4:05 refugees who could work and socialize and learn in a safe, community-supported environment. This room that we're in now was the main sitting and reception room for this building, where residents would socialize and receive guests. So we'll take a moment to feel the presence of 45 years of residents and visitors. Report an error in the passage at 4:05 Highlight the passage at 4:05

4:37 of the Emanuel Residence Club, sharing stories of where they've come from, recovering from what they went through to get here, laughing and joking with each other, nervously waiting for a date to arrive, saying goodbye, and moving out to the next phase of life. Report an error in the passage at 4:37 Highlight the passage at 4:37

5:01 Let's feel that vitality for a moment. Report an error in the passage at 5:01 Highlight the passage at 5:01

5:30 before this building was built. Report an error in the passage at 5:30 Highlight the passage at 5:30

5:36 was part of the parcel attached to the Victorian house that's still next door, the next one uphill. Report an error in the passage at 5:36 Highlight the passage at 5:36

5:47 Before the streets and the buildings were here, this was a hillside, likely similar to one you might see across the bridge in the Marin Headlands, or maybe I like to think similar to the northeast corner of Golden Gate Park, just at the end of Hayes Street. Report an error in the passage at 5:47 Highlight the passage at 5:47

6:07 This hillside would have been a mix of oak trees and rocks, trickling springs and sandy spots. Report an error in the passage at 6:07 Highlight the passage at 6:07

6:18 These are the unceded traditional lands of the Ramatush Ohlone people. Before the seizure of this land, there were 1,500 or 2,000 people living on this San Francisco peninsula. There was a Ramatush Ohlone village called Chuchuy in the area. Between the current Dolores Mission Church and Dolores Park. It's possible that a Ramatush Ohlone family would have had established collecting rights for whatever grew in this area. Report an error in the passage at 6:18 Highlight the passage at 6:18

6:59 No one owned the land and it was held collectively. This bay and the land around it were unimaginably bountiful, ringed with marshes and sand dunes, filled with birds and animals. Report an error in the passage at 6:59 Highlight the passage at 6:59

7:17 The Ramatush Ohlone lived here very lightly on the land and lived here for perhaps 5,000 years before colonization. Report an error in the passage at 7:17 Highlight the passage at 7:17

7:32 This is a southeast-facing hillside, so we can imagine poppies and dune grasses. You all would be facing uphill. I would be facing downhill, looking out across Mission Creek and the large lake. that filled the middle of what is now the Mission District. Report an error in the passage at 7:32 Highlight the passage at 7:32

7:57 In that direction, I would be looking across marshes and sand dunes and rocky hilltops, and over there, a green island in the bay, and on the other side of the bay, on the hills across, redwoods so large that individual trees could be seen by ships outside the Golden Gate. Report an error in the passage at 7:57 Highlight the passage at 7:57

8:24 The people felt themselves to be an extension of the land, Just like the trees, just like the deer, and this land was peaceful. Report an error in the passage at 8:24 Highlight the passage at 8:24

8:38 So let's take a moment to feel the bones of this place, the land that is still under this building, the land that peaks up through this courtyard, and feel that presence that underlies this place. Report an error in the passage at 8:38 Highlight the passage at 8:38

· · · silence, 1 minute

9:35 Every place in this world is this layered, this complicated. And this touched by change. When we connect deeply with the place we're in, we feel time itself showing up. Report an error in the passage at 9:35 Highlight the passage at 9:35

9:55 Even places that have not been so overbuilt by humans have drifted on their continents all around the globe to be a tropical forest in one eon, to be a frozen mountaintop in another, in the future, maybe to be the floor of a new ocean. Report an error in the passage at 9:55 Highlight the passage at 9:55

10:17 In all of the universe, life is the rarest thing. Comparatively, gold and diamonds are everywhere. Life and the complex products of living systems are the rarest thing that we know of. In all the visible universe, we've found life so far just on this one small planet. And it's incredibly rare. That the conditions here have remained more or less hospitable to life for four billion consecutive years. It is cosmically unlikely to be alive at all. Report an error in the passage at 10:17 Highlight the passage at 10:17

11:02 We should treasure this life. We should treasure all life. Life on this planet is not a series of separate, discrete individual beings as we commonly think of it. Report an error in the passage at 11:02 Highlight the passage at 11:02

11:20 It's not humans here. Living on their own, trees over there living on their own, whales out there living on their own, all life is completely interwoven with all other life. Report an error in the passage at 11:20 Highlight the passage at 11:20

11:36 When we cut down one forest grove, the effect of that change ripples out, from the animals who live there to the cloud patterns that form or no longer form above that forest, to where and how rain falls on the other side of the globe. Report an error in the passage at 11:36 Highlight the passage at 11:36

11:58 I think we would do much better to think of this one great earth as a single living thing with its circulatory and respiratory processes that we participate in and can interrupt intentionally or not. Report an error in the passage at 11:58 Highlight the passage at 11:58

12:23 Just 250 years ago, this piece of land that we're on now was the birthright and the treasure of the Ramatushalone. They didn't give it up. They didn't leave it. This land was taken and nearly all Ramatushalone died in the first few generations after Spanish arrival. Report an error in the passage at 12:23 Highlight the passage at 12:23

12:49 Human greed kills living things. And I see in myself how I resist still actually deeply accepting the Buddhist truths of interdependence and impermanence. I resist. Truly allowing myself to feel the sadness, to feel the shame of being part, even centuries later, of the process that exterminated nearly all of the original inhabitants of this land and ended five thousand years of gentle history. Report an error in the passage at 12:49 Highlight the passage at 12:49

13:34 I want to stay and focus on the joyous later chapters. On the beautiful, important things that I think San Francisco Zen Center has done and can do. It is also true that many wonderful things have happened here. Report an error in the passage at 13:34 Highlight the passage at 13:34

13:56 And ignoring the terrible genocidal history, ignoring the true texture of reality, leaves a gap. A gap for rationalization, a gap for dodging my shared responsibility in this world. Report an error in the passage at 13:56 Highlight the passage at 13:56

14:16 Ignoring the true history leaves a gap for what we call delusion. As I experience the truth of interdependence, the beauty and the wondrousness, Report an error in the passage at 14:16 Highlight the passage at 14:16

14:31 The beauty and the wondrousness of living Report an error in the passage at 14:31 Highlight the passage at 14:31

14:37 The joy comes at the same time as feeling the pain of interconnection. And neither the suffering nor the joy can really be ignored when we're deeply rooted in the true nature of reality. Report an error in the passage at 14:37 Highlight the passage at 14:37

14:59 We did not create the world that we find ourselves in, but we are responsible for what we do from this moment forward. Report an error in the passage at 14:59 Highlight the passage at 14:59

15:13 And I wish I could just stay with I think this recognition of the rarity of this opportunity is one of the things that really animates my practice. I Report an error in the passage at 15:13 Highlight the passage at 15:13

15:33 wish I could just talk about that for the rest of this talk, but I don't feel like I can because for the past six weeks, the United States of America has been bombing one of these wondrous places, one of these real, complicated, layered parts of the world. Report an error in the passage at 15:33 Highlight the passage at 15:33

16:02 In this case, The place being bombed is the place longest affected by the depletion economy of extractive capitalism. The place where we sometimes say history began, meaning we can identify distinct individuals by name and activity. Report an error in the passage at 16:02 Highlight the passage at 16:02

16:24 The land of the Assyrians and the Akkadians and the Babylonians and the Persians. Report an error in the passage at 16:24 Highlight the passage at 16:24

16:32 This is not the only war we are engaged in, but it is the most recent. War we have started. And some Americans are celebrating and glorifying this war. I say may there be peace. Report an error in the passage at 16:32 Highlight the passage at 16:32

16:51 May all beings be well, safe, and at ease. Report an error in the passage at 16:51 Highlight the passage at 16:51

17:00 And I think now that we have a Department of War, we should balance that with a Department of Peace. I want a Department of Peace that takes up its mission with as much zeal as the Department of War has. Report an error in the passage at 17:00 Highlight the passage at 17:00

17:17 If we truly want peace, we have to actually prioritize peace. We have to use the existence or absence of peace as our criteria for success. When we prioritize money over life, over individual lives or over collective life, then we will end up inevitably killing for money. Report an error in the passage at 17:17 Highlight the passage at 17:17

17:46 reasons for war, all too often can be reduced to We don't want to pay more and we don't want to do without the things that we like. Almost every reason I have heard for this particular war is a variation on that. Report an error in the passage at 17:46 Highlight the passage at 17:46

18:07 But I think if we can save even one living thing, we should be willing to pay $40 for a gallon of gas or find an alternative to gasoline entirely. Report an error in the passage at 18:07 Highlight the passage at 18:07

18:24 Why do our wars begin with bombs? Why don't we start by dropping food and supplies and tools? Report an error in the passage at 18:24 Highlight the passage at 18:24

18:36 Why don't we make lives better to the point where war is unnecessary? Why don't we want to become the world's most famous peacemakers? Report an error in the passage at 18:36 Highlight the passage at 18:36

18:51 Is it only because there's so much money to be made in building bombs? Report an error in the passage at 18:51 Highlight the passage at 18:51

19:06 Some time ago, Ursula K. Le Guin did her own translation of the Tao Te Ching. Report an error in the passage at 19:06 Highlight the passage at 19:06

19:16 And I'd like to read chapter 31 of this translation. Report an error in the passage at 19:16 Highlight the passage at 19:16

19:27 Even the best weapon is an unhappy tool. hateful to living things. so the follower of the way stays away from it. Weapons are unhappy tools, not chosen by thoughtful people, to be used only when there is no choice and with a calm, still mind, without enjoyment. Report an error in the passage at 19:27 Highlight the passage at 19:27

20:00 To enjoy using weapons is to enjoy killing people. And to enjoy killing people is to lose your share in the common good. What's happening? It is right that the murder of many people be mourned and lamented. It is right that a victor in war be received with funeral ceremonies. Report an error in the passage at 20:00 Highlight the passage at 20:00

20:45 Now, in the Middle East, is a preview and a warning of what will eventually, inevitably happen here if we continue on this path of greed, hate, and delusion. We Report an error in the passage at 20:45 Highlight the passage at 20:45

21:08 are fighting over the last scraps of green in order to consume them now before someone else does. We have not learned the lessons of our ancestors. Report an error in the passage at 21:08 Highlight the passage at 21:08

21:25 If we want peace for our descendants a thousand years from now, our Department of Peace should study, with its vast research budget, the fastest ways to achieve peace and the best ways to promote and ensure peace. Report an error in the passage at 21:25 Highlight the passage at 21:25

21:47 We should be taking the needs and the rights of the next 1,000 generations into consideration when we decide how to live our lives and conduct our society. Report an error in the passage at 21:47 Highlight the passage at 21:47

22:01 To kill should be done only when every other option has been exhausted and it should be done regretfully. We Report an error in the passage at 22:01 Highlight the passage at 22:01

22:16 began tonight by deeply grounding ourselves in the embodied, lived experience of this place. Report an error in the passage at 22:16 Highlight the passage at 22:16

22:27 I wanted to do that because I think it's much too easy for us to ignore the real human experience of war. When this nation is dropping bombs, Thank you. Thank you. on real human beings who are living individual lives as complex and rich as ours. Report an error in the passage at 22:27 Highlight the passage at 22:27

22:52 We are bombing specific places on this one great body of the earth, places just as complex and layered in history as this place. Report an error in the passage at 22:52 Highlight the passage at 22:52

23:07 Those who we are bombing are so much like us. The places we are bombing are so much like this place. It is a terrible tragedy that this nation is once again at war. Report an error in the passage at 23:07 Highlight the passage at 23:07

23:38 This dharma talk is also one of the Zen ceremonies that happens in this space. This talk began just like so many of our ceremonies began. Report an error in the passage at 23:38 Highlight the passage at 23:38

24:01 One of the signs that we're in the middle of the ceremony, my bowing cloth is still down on the ground, saying we're not quite done yet. We're coming back to the ceremonial elements. Report an error in the passage at 24:01 Highlight the passage at 24:01

24:15 In our ceremonies, we often start with bells and bowing, and then there's a central activity, the daily service, a dharma talk like this one, sometimes a meal or an ordination, whatever it might be. Report an error in the passage at 24:15 Highlight the passage at 24:15

24:35 And after that activity, there is a dedication of the merit of that activity, handing over any benefit that may have accrued from our actions, handing over that benefit out into the world. Report an error in the passage at 24:35 Highlight the passage at 24:35

24:53 We are actually conducting this ceremony together right now. And this ceremony just happens to have this talk in the middle of it. Report an error in the passage at 24:53 Highlight the passage at 24:53

25:05 So I want to add another ceremonial element. As we draw to the end of this talk, I've printed out copies of that verse of the Tao Te Ching. And those of you who have them, you can hand those out. You're welcome to keep these, give them away, leave them on the table as you leave. Report an error in the passage at 25:05 Highlight the passage at 25:05

25:31 I'd like us to chant this poem together in the hope of peace. And then at the end of this talk, Before we do our final bows, I'll offer a dedication of merit. And whatever merit we accrue through our hope for peace and through our activities here, we will give that merit over to the world. Report an error in the passage at 25:31 Highlight the passage at 25:31

26:04 Just give it a moment for papers to make their way around. Report an error in the passage at 26:04 Highlight the passage at 26:04

26:24 Correct. Everyone who wants one has one. Looks like it. Report an error in the passage at 26:24 Highlight the passage at 26:24

26:33 So we'll chant this. Or recite this together. I'll say the title first so we all know when to start. Report an error in the passage at 26:33 Highlight the passage at 26:33

26:47 Tao Te Ching, Chapter 31. Even the best weapon is an unhappy tool, hateful to living things. So the follower of the way stays away from it. Weapons are unhappy tools, not chosen by thoughtful people. Report an error in the passage at 26:47 Highlight the passage at 26:47

27:20 weapons is to enjoy killing people and to enjoy killing people is to lose your share in the common good. It is right that the murder of many people be mourned and lamented. It is right that a victor in war be received with funeral ceremonies. Report an error in the passage at 27:20 Highlight the passage at 27:20

27:46 Thank Report an error in the passage at 27:46 Highlight the passage at 27:46

27:50 you all for coming tonight, for allowing yourselves to feel what it's like to be in this complicated world. There is joy here and there is pain. And the more we can deeply see and feel both, Report an error in the passage at 27:50 Highlight the passage at 27:50

28:17 The more I think we'll be able to find a kinder and gentler path forward. Report an error in the passage at 28:17 Highlight the passage at 28:17

28:30 So we've got a few minutes for discussion and comment. So if anyone would like to say anything, raise a hand. The email will bring you a microphone. Report an error in the passage at 28:30 Highlight the passage at 28:30

28:45 Thanks, Dan. Report an error in the passage at 28:45 Highlight the passage at 28:45

28:50 So today is tax day. And I paid my taxes this year. I don't make very much money, but I did pay some taxes. So I'm actually paying for those weapons. How do you work with that right there? The place I have to start is how much it hurts, how painful it is to know that in some way I am contributing to that system. Report an error in the passage at 28:50 Highlight the passage at 28:50

29:35 I think this is one of the reasons I felt moved to give this talk. I am not standing on the outside of this system commenting on it. I am implicated, involved. Report an error in the passage at 29:35 Highlight the passage at 29:35

29:54 And so I think it is, I feel morally impelled to comment on it. So I think speaking up is a great place to start. Report an error in the passage at 29:54 Highlight the passage at 29:54

30:08 I am a little encouraged, honestly, by also being someone who makes very little money. has found a way to live very cheaply and doesn't participate as much in the extractive, consumptive economy as I used to. Report an error in the passage at 30:08 Highlight the passage at 30:08

30:34 You know, some people don't pay their taxes. Some people take a legal stand and do not pay their taxes. Some people suffer greatly for that, and some people get away with it. two. Report an error in the passage at 30:34 Highlight the passage at 30:34

30:48 It may be worth looking into, and it seems like a frightening option as well in some ways to expose myself to some sort of legal jeopardy. Report an error in the passage at 30:48 Highlight the passage at 30:48

31:07 And it is enormously safer to not pay my taxes than it is to be in a place that's being bombed. So I'm really wrestling with this myself, and I don't feel like I have a... I haven't found an answer yet that satisfies me. So I'm trying to approach it from a bunch of individual small actions at once. Report an error in the passage at 31:07 Highlight the passage at 31:07

31:36 and maybe someday I'll go to jail for not paying my taxes. I don't know. I think about it sometimes. It might be worth it. Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 31:36 Highlight the passage at 31:36

31:49 I'll let the Eno keep track of who has raised their hand first. Thank you. Thank you, Dan, for this talk. It really resonated what... you were speaking about in terms of holding the sense of place and the people before and the violence and incorporating Report an error in the passage at 31:49 Highlight the passage at 31:49

32:13 that into your view of the world and I think something I've struggled with is a common theme is the more I know the more isolated I feel and disconnected from others you know I mean and it trickles down and really small and kind of silly ways of even just learning more about racism and misogyny throughout my life. Report an error in the passage at 32:13 Highlight the passage at 32:13

32:39 Hmm. Report an error in the passage at 32:39 Highlight the passage at 32:39

32:56 Hmm. Report an error in the passage at 32:56 Highlight the passage at 32:56

33:01 Hmm. It Report an error in the passage at 33:01 Highlight the passage at 33:01

33:13 is really deeply painful to movies and not connecting with them in the ways that others do and having kind of these small constant reminders of that disconnection and I'm wondering what you think about that how you might approach that Report an error in the passage at 33:13 Highlight the passage at 33:13

33:21 Actually see how terrible human beings can be to each other. I Report an error in the passage at 33:21 Highlight the passage at 33:21

33:33 think feeling, recognizing and feeling the distress at the many harms that have happened in this world is an Report an error in the passage at 33:33 Highlight the passage at 33:33

33:49 appropriate response. And I think as more people become aware of Report an error in the passage at 33:49 Highlight the passage at 33:49

34:06 place in it is. We see things that we did not see before. And I think the only direction we can go is forward in time. So we can't change what has happened, but I think by... Report an error in the passage at 34:06 Highlight the passage at 34:06

34:29 Talking about what we see and what we experience, bringing others into our experience, we share the burden a little bit. And I think there's, not I think, I clearly see, there is a lot of tension in this country and a backlash of sorts against people who are speaking out, pointing out historical racism, misogyny, pointing out all of the harm. Report an error in the passage at 34:29 Highlight the passage at 34:29

35:08 That backlash is not... your responsibility to deal with, it's perfectly appropriate to... withdraw from a situation like that and seek out the community that does support you. Report an error in the passage at 35:08 Highlight the passage at 35:08

35:29 if feeling isolated, Report an error in the passage at 35:29 Highlight the passage at 35:29

35:34 I think we can take some... Hope and encouragement from the fact that there are communities of good conscience in this world. We can connect with them. And in those, you know, I've had these moments where I'm trying to point out historical harm and I feel resistance from people who I'm talking to. Report an error in the passage at 35:34 Highlight the passage at 35:34

36:04 And if I can... Ground myself enough. Sometimes I can find some point of connection, some way for me to understand them and them to understand me. I do think on some level, deep down, almost all human beings think they are doing their best and think they are doing right. Report an error in the passage at 36:04 Highlight the passage at 36:04

36:41 Some are just more aware of their effect in the world than others. And I think that process I just described, that piece of work doesn't need to be done all the time by everyone. I think each of our own individual lives and experiences is such a treasure, is such a joy that if we are stressed out or Report an error in the passage at 36:41 Highlight the passage at 36:41

37:15 worried or harmed by an experience, we should get away. We should leave that experience. Yeah, Report an error in the passage at 37:15 Highlight the passage at 37:15

37:45 I don't have a good single clear answer, but... and, uh, you know, to... point out a harm and say, I see that this harm is happening and I cannot deal with this myself. Community, please, can someone come address this? Report an error in the passage at 37:45 Highlight the passage at 37:45

37:50 Somewhere in those things are my best current suggestions. Thank you so much. Report an error in the passage at 37:50 Highlight the passage at 37:50

38:00 Great. Parsa, go ahead. We'll make sure Parsa can get unmuted. The channel for the computer on the mixer needs to be unmuted as well. Report an error in the passage at 38:00 Highlight the passage at 38:00

38:21 Parsa, give it a try. We might be able to hear you. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can hear you. Go ahead. Awesome. Thank you. You know, I... I was reflecting on the conversations I've had with people who very genuinely think Report an error in the passage at 38:21 Highlight the passage at 38:21

38:47 there are justifications for what we do or this war in particular, whether it's from a place of delusion Report an error in the passage at 38:47 Highlight the passage at 38:47

39:02 about the conditions or disagreement on what is reality. And also sometimes from a place of despair or not knowing what else. But there are all these ways in which people find justifications that when I talk to people, it seems genuine. It's coming from a place that they really think this is necessary or warranted. Report an error in the passage at 39:02 Highlight the passage at 39:02

39:41 So what I'm wondering is when When you see people in what Report an error in the passage at 39:41 Highlight the passage at 39:41

39:51 is perceived from your side that it is a delusion or that it's not right, I wonder how do you, in that interpersonal connection, how do you hold them as part of that tapestry of life, including what they are espousing? And how do you genuinely engage with that? while trying to also Yeah, Report an error in the passage at 39:51 Highlight the passage at 39:51

40:30 great question. Great question. Report an error in the passage at 40:30 Highlight the passage at 40:30

40:43 For me, in my own experience, one of the major ways that I work with this is address what you think is a confusion or misunderstanding by that Report an error in the passage at 40:43 Highlight the passage at 40:43

40:37 a good question. Report an error in the passage at 40:37 Highlight the passage at 40:37

40:52 To ask myself the question, what would I have to have experienced in my life to be seeing the world the way this person is seeing the world? Report an error in the passage at 40:52 Highlight the passage at 40:52

41:04 Because I do think we should believe people about what they say, what they think, what they experience. I think most of the time people really do Report an error in the passage at 41:04 Highlight the passage at 41:04

41:19 Believe what they believe, what they say they believe, and think they are experiencing what they say they're experiencing. So I think if we can Report an error in the passage at 41:19 Highlight the passage at 41:19

41:33 hold on to a little bit of curiosity and say, this is another human being who in 99.9 % of the ways I could measure it is very much like me. What Report an error in the passage at 41:33 Highlight the passage at 41:33

41:53 What might they have experienced in order to see the world so differently from how I'm seeing it? To me, that's been a really fruitful place to start. Report an error in the passage at 41:53 Highlight the passage at 41:53

42:07 I also have found it helpful sometimes to drop the sort of... What is it? The mechanics or the specifics of whatever might be being discussed about should we do this, should we do that, and really try to get to what are the deep values and beliefs. Because sometimes I'm surprised when someone who I disagree with greatly, I ask them, you know, what are the values or the beliefs that underpin this for you? Report an error in the passage at 42:07 Highlight the passage at 42:07

42:45 And they say back to me something that is very much like what I think I believe. Report an error in the passage at 42:45 Highlight the passage at 42:45

42:53 Then from that place, we can discuss how do we get to such different conclusions about what specifically should be happening in the world. Report an error in the passage at 42:53 Highlight the passage at 42:53

43:06 So yeah, those are two methods, two pieces that have been helpful for me. Gosh, I hope there are Hundreds more ways to deal with this question. Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 43:06 Highlight the passage at 43:06

43:24 And I see we are at our time. So I think we will draw to a close there. I'll put my hands back up. We're going to chant together this little closing verse. And then I'll get up. I'll come up here to this bowing mat. And unlike the usual form, I'm sorry, Tim. I'm going to break the forms just a little bit. Unlike the usual form, I am going to return to the altar and do another fragrance offering, keeping in mind this hope and wish for peace. Report an error in the passage at 43:24 Highlight the passage at 43:24

44:04 And then when I get to the back of the mat, then I will say just a very brief dedication, handing over the merit of our time together for peace and healing. And then we'll do all our three bows together. Report an error in the passage at 44:04 Highlight the passage at 44:04

44:20 And just follow along as best you can. Thank you again, everyone, for coming Report an error in the passage at 44:20 Highlight the passage at 44:20

44:32 with your hearts and minds and bodies to this place and exploring this thorny, ancient question. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge. And this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfzc.org and click Giving. Report an error in the passage at 44:32 Highlight the passage at 44:32

45:07 May we all fully enjoy the Dharma. Report an error in the passage at 45:07 Highlight the passage at 45:07