Body, Breath and Hara

0:00 This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Report an error in the passage at 0:00 Highlight the passage at 0:00

0:16 Well, it's clearly been a while since I've done this. Report an error in the passage at 0:16 Highlight the passage at 0:16

0:25 Thank you so much to Tonto and everyone for the opportunity. I'm incredibly grateful for it. And apologies for all the things that I've done wrong up to this moment and for all the things I'm going to do wrong in the following 45 minutes or so. And one of them is this. I've given... Report an error in the passage at 0:25 Highlight the passage at 0:25

1:04 I've heard versions of this talk previously, and I happen to know that some people that are here have heard parts of it. So I hope that that's not a problem and that there's enough additional material so that you're not just going, oh my God, here it goes again. Report an error in the passage at 1:04 Highlight the passage at 1:04

1:26 So just as a warning, the talk is about the breath and the aura, right? Report an error in the passage at 1:26 Highlight the passage at 1:26

1:39 Big topics. And I hope I can do them justice. So it's probably worth starting by asking what Zazen actually is. Does anyone want to jump out and make a statement around that? What is Zazen anyway? Excellent. Report an error in the passage at 1:39 Highlight the passage at 1:39

2:16 When somebody asks Paul, Paul. My teacher, that in a shosan ceremony, he just went, which Report an error in the passage at 2:16 Highlight the passage at 2:16

2:34 is great. But that's not actually what zazen is from the perspective of this particular discussion. So let's get on with it. Report an error in the passage at 2:34 Highlight the passage at 2:34

2:59 The most... Simple description of Zazen is that it's a devotional act in which you assume the posture of the guy on the altar, basically. And there's a lot of stuff in the literature about how that's true, right? And it is in fact true, right? Report an error in the passage at 2:59 Highlight the passage at 2:59

3:25 So start with that, right? So to do Zazen, you assume a posture. And by now it's clear that not everybody has to assume the posture of the guy on the altar, but nonetheless you assume a posture. And you hold it for a period of time that by pretty much all physical and mental standards is ridiculously long. Report an error in the passage at 3:25 Highlight the passage at 3:25

4:04 When we go through life assuming postures all the live long day, we stand up, we sit down, we pose, we turn to talk to somebody, we turn to talk to somebody angry, we turn to talk to somebody loving and accepting, etc. All of that, right? And we do it smoothly and quickly. quickly and you know In the sort of rhythm of everyday life, we do it in the correct term is a real time, right? Report an error in the passage at 4:04 Highlight the passage at 4:04

4:39 Because it's a part of our activity as humans and those postures communicate things both to the one who's assuming the posture and to the one who's observing. They're important. in a whole bunch of frameworks. So that's what it means to assume a posture, but we do it for this ridiculously long time, and we do it in a different way than the usual, which is we're asked to do Report an error in the passage at 4:39 Highlight the passage at 4:39

5:27 it in the light of a kind of Report an error in the passage at 5:27 Highlight the passage at 5:27

5:34 broad, And comprehensive attention and a kind of intentional deliberateness, deliberation. When Baker Roshi came here a number of years ago to give a talk, he talked about physical and mental posture. So you assume a posture, there's a physical posture that goes with it, but there's also a mental posture that has to do with How the mind and the posture interact, play on each other, help each other out, and sometimes get in each other's way. Report an error in the passage at 5:34 Highlight the passage at 5:34

6:20 And Pekharoshi's statement about mental posture was mostly that you shouldn't move. But there's more to it than that. We're constantly moving. Even when it looks for all the world like we're sitting still and the request is more like to, again, to be deliberate and attentive and as thorough as possible about it. Report an error in the passage at 6:20 Highlight the passage at 6:20

6:57 And, of course, this is difficult. And it's difficult for reasons that everyone in this room understands, which is great. We can all agree that it's difficult. The most obvious simple explanation is your body really doesn't like holding a posture for 45 minutes or an hour. It's like, what the hell is going on here? Report an error in the passage at 6:57 Highlight the passage at 6:57

7:26 I haven't done anything with this hip joint for an hour and I think I'll generate some pain signals to make them do something about it, right? So there's that and then there's the way in which we can actually buy through inattention and kind of the natural slumping and other things that go on. Find ourselves in a position where we're actually pulling too hard on some joint or muscle and it actually gets very painful and you can even hurt yourself doing it. Report an error in the passage at 7:26 Highlight the passage at 7:26

8:07 And then the last bit is if you're sitting in such a way that you have an impingement, a nerve impingement in your hips or knees or ankles, some part of your body goes to sleep and becomes... unmanageable and in the long run that can be also damaging right so it's a lot right and and it is difficult so the question is why would anybody sit saws in I'm tempted to ask if anybody can volunteer a response to that, but okay, why? Report an error in the passage at 8:07 Highlight the passage at 8:07

8:58 Yeah, that's right. I mean, so what Dogen says is this, right? You do this thing of taking this posture and doing it in this deliberate and attentive way. And that's an intimate form of self-study. And it naturally, of course, brings up as an object of study the activity of the body and also the activity of the mind. Report an error in the passage at 8:58 Highlight the passage at 8:58

9:32 right? And... What Dogen says, and he doesn't say it exactly this way, but what Dogen says is that to do that, not Report an error in the passage at 9:32 Highlight the passage at 9:32

9:49 immediately, not suddenly, not gradually, some combination of those things, allows this broader picture of what it is to live a human life and have a human mind to swim into focus, right? Report an error in the passage at 9:49 Highlight the passage at 9:49

10:09 One of the main things that swims into focus when that happens is this other mode of being that's different from our everyday cognitive faculty that's all tangled up with language, that's all tangled up with sociality, that's all tangled up with long-range and short-range planning, that has preferences that can be expressed in Report an error in the passage at 10:09 Highlight the passage at 10:09

10:39 ...in words and is constantly wanging around dualistic notions that relate to those preferences and so on. This other mode, Suzuki Roshi calls it big mind, but you could really also, let's be clear, call it Buddha mind. This other mode isn't concerned with those things at all. it's Its drivers, its effective drivers feel very, very different than our sort of emotional constructs and its primary kind Report an error in the passage at 10:39 Highlight the passage at 10:39

11:22 of attribute under most circumstances that you're likely to run into when you're sitting zazen is a kind of deep and unconditioned appreciation for just being alive. so um so So that swims into view, right? And then Zazen is also considered a model for how you live an everyday human life with an everyday human mind. Report an error in the passage at 11:22 Highlight the passage at 11:22

11:59 You try and live in such a way that the mind of Zazen and... And big mind, Buddha mind, are a part of everyday activity, right? They can be brought forward as a result of triggers that we learn. Report an error in the passage at 11:59 Highlight the passage at 11:59

12:27 There's a difficult thing happening here. I know what to do to slow down, to meet it carefully and considerately. and Bring forward this sort of broad, receptive attention, compassionate curiosity, and the kind of intentional deliberateness that's required to meet difficult situations. Report an error in the passage at 12:27 Highlight the passage at 12:27

13:00 And why would we do that? It's because it enables a life that's more skillful and agile. ...than our sort of regular, everyday concerns and the faculties that work on them. Report an error in the passage at 13:00 Highlight the passage at 13:00

13:31 It doesn't remove, but it deprecates the agendas of the separate self and even the notion of separate self. So that's why I saw Zen. That's why a life of practice, this is the kind of thing that doesn't happen suddenly, it happens as a result of extended and diligent practice. Report an error in the passage at 13:31 Highlight the passage at 13:31

14:20 So I haven't really even once mentioned the breath yet, so I should probably do that now. practice. Report an error in the passage at 14:20 Highlight the passage at 14:20

14:27 So the… So where's the breath in all this? When we're sitting zazen and walking around in the world, we're relying on our body, right? And with respect to the body, some of the things that the body does are completely beyond our control. Like, how much control do you have over the operation of your pancreas, for example? Report an error in the passage at 14:27 Highlight the passage at 14:27

14:54 Probably very little. Do you even know what it means for your mind to talk to your pancreas? No, there's nothing like that. But your arms, your legs, your back, and your lungs, we have a fair amount of control over those, but honestly, no really deep or comprehensive understanding about how they work. Report an error in the passage at 14:54 Highlight the passage at 14:54

15:20 They're a mystery, but we can... We have these levers we can pull that change the way they operate, and in particular with the breath, right? Report an error in the passage at 15:20 Highlight the passage at 15:20

15:34 The breath, obviously, we need to breathe or we're going to die, right? And we need to breathe pretty regularly or we're going to die. But we can choose not to breathe for a little while. That's useful, for example, if we're underwater. Report an error in the passage at 15:34 Highlight the passage at 15:34

15:59 choose to breathe slowly or quickly. I do a lot of kind of crazy long distance cycling, and I have a lot of technique for calibrating the rate of my breath in order to keep oxygen in my legs as I'm doing stuff, right? Yeah, we can do that, right? Right. And. Report an error in the passage at 15:59 Highlight the passage at 15:59

16:27 All of that is possible, but for the most part, we just ignore the breath and let it take its own, what we think of as its natural course. Report an error in the passage at 16:27 Highlight the passage at 16:27

16:45 And in some ways, that, quote, natural course is a way that we've learned how to breathe. It's the way we learn how to breathe from day zero. And people have different natural breath cycles and sort of breath strategies that they carry with them. Report an error in the passage at 16:45 Highlight the passage at 16:45

17:14 The Report an error in the passage at 17:14 Highlight the passage at 17:14

17:19 request of Zazen is to take Report an error in the passage at 17:19 Highlight the passage at 17:19

17:27 on both sitting and breathing as monastic forms. That's what they are in Zaza and their monastic forms. And, you know, what exactly does that mean, right? I mean, again, in the simplest sense, it means we take a posture, right? But everybody Report an error in the passage at 17:27 Highlight the passage at 17:27

17:54 has a different body and, again, a different way of breathing and different capacities. and... Report an error in the passage at 17:54 Highlight the passage at 17:54

18:06 Everybody's posture is unique. I mean, you know, some of this has to do with capacity to sit in, say, full lotus or half lotus or in seizo or, you know, et cetera, right? Report an error in the passage at 18:06 Highlight the passage at 18:06

18:21 But even laying that aside, even if every single one of us was thoroughly capable of sitting, you know, sitting full lotus for an hour and 15 minutes, still our postures would all be completely different. experience of them would be completely different from each other because we're all unique. Report an error in the passage at 18:21 Highlight the passage at 18:21

18:49 And so in the broadest sense, what it means to consider your breath as a monastic form is to completely and thoroughly Report an error in the passage at 18:49 Highlight the passage at 18:49

19:08 Express your very own posture. And if you pick, if you happen to pick half lotus, you completely express your own half lotus. And the same thing with the breath. You completely express your own cycle and depth and rate of breath. breath, right? Report an error in the passage at 19:08 Highlight the passage at 19:08

19:40 So that's what it is. That's the starting point of considering your posture and breath as monastic forms. You can't just take any posture and any time and breathe in any way. The idea is you... kind of home in on a posture or a collection of postures that allow you to sit in this way where you can fully express them for the entire 40 minutes. Report an error in the passage at 19:40 Highlight the passage at 19:40

20:20 And work with what happens when you do that, basically. Report an error in the passage at 20:20 Highlight the passage at 20:20

20:39 All monastic forms have an esoteric and an exoteric aspect, or aspects. The exoteric, that is public, aspect of Zazen posture and Zazen breathing ...has to mostly, and pretty much of all monastic forms that we practice, you know, stepping over the threshold with your left foot and, you know, bowing in gassho during sesshin when you pass somebody in the hall and all the rest of that sort of thing. Report an error in the passage at 20:39 Highlight the passage at 20:39

21:22 The sort of exoteric, public function of those mostly has to do with mindfulness. And it's in particular mindfulness of speech, emotion, efforts, et cetera. But in particular with breath, when you read Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, Suzuki Roshi at least sometimes recommends counting your breath. Report an error in the passage at 21:22 Highlight the passage at 21:22

21:59 It's completely true that counting your breath Report an error in the passage at 21:59 Highlight the passage at 21:59

22:05 Or, you know, we don't do this that much, but other Buddhist sects do. Carrying a mantra or some sort of recitation with your breath. Report an error in the passage at 22:05 Highlight the passage at 22:05

22:20 Actually, you know, a lot of sotas and Buddhists secretly do this, just so you know. It's not public, but it can be a powerful It's a powerful aid to mindfulness. It shows when you're paying attention, and it shows when you're not paying attention, like all of the monastic forms I just mentioned. They all have that quality, and that's useful. Report an error in the passage at 22:20 Highlight the passage at 22:20

22:50 The problem with that is that And Suzuki Roshi says this in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, and Dogen says it in various places. When you set something up like that, it's easy to get it tangled up with notions of perfection, notions of self, and so on and so forth, Report an error in the passage at 22:50 Highlight the passage at 22:50

23:29 Lose oneself or struggle with the kind of dynamic between awareness and control. When you're aware of something, it's very easy to slip into working on it, right? And that's hard. And so probably a lot of you have read Rev's new book, but he has this marvelous bit. And sort of near the beginning where when he arrives at Tassajara and he learns how to siddhas and he learns the breath counting thing and he vows that he's going to become the best breath counter at Tassajara. Report an error in the passage at 23:29 Highlight the passage at 23:29

24:16 And he works his ass off on it for six months or something like that. And finally, he can count his breath just continuously and impeccably without losing his awareness and so on and so forth. And he's like, Report an error in the passage at 24:16 Highlight the passage at 24:16

24:30 Wait a second. How does this have anything to do with the gift and goal of Zazen? And he's like, okay, I'm going to stop doing this now. But it's really easy to do that. And my sense is that everyone has this problem with monastic forms, and in particular with breathing. Report an error in the passage at 24:30 Highlight the passage at 24:30

24:53 It's really easy to fall into messing with stuff. Report an error in the passage at 24:53 Highlight the passage at 24:53

25:03 And kind of lose track of the actual experience of sitting zazen. How can the mind that doesn't deal Report an error in the passage at 25:03 Highlight the passage at 25:03

25:26 in me and you and perfect and imperfect and all the rest of that sort of thing even show its face when you're grinding away at some sort of perfection, right? No. Report an error in the passage at 25:26 Highlight the passage at 25:26

25:44 So Report an error in the passage at 25:44 Highlight the passage at 25:44

25:53 when Report an error in the passage at 25:53 Highlight the passage at 25:53

26:01 I started sitting, I had a lot of problems with this, right? And my breath felt really tight and kind of shallow, and I knew I was supposed to do something with it, but I couldn't figure out what, and it was very, very uncomfortable. And most of the time when I was sitting, I felt like I wasn't getting enough air. Report an error in the passage at 26:01 Highlight the passage at 26:01

26:26 right? And then this thing happened once during a Sashin where I was, you know, at some point people advised me to just stop thinking about my breath. And so I did that. And then at one point I found myself thinking about it again. And I was, you know, sort of working a little bit with my breath. And all of a sudden my entire belly just opened up. Report an error in the passage at 26:26 Highlight the passage at 26:26

26:55 And I felt like I had this vast chamber down there where I could breathe in as deeply as I wanted and let it go as deeply as I wanted. It was marvelous. And what I noticed was that along with that came a kind of relaxation and lively attention that comes from getting enough oxygen. Report an error in the passage at 26:55 Highlight the passage at 26:55

27:29 And having a body that's breathing in a way that feels comfortable and healthful, right? And so I didn't really know what any of that meant. And then this is the part I've talked about before. Paul invited this guy named Bill Zemsky to come in and give what's known as a horror development workshop, right? Report an error in the passage at 27:29 Highlight the passage at 27:29

27:55 So apparently this is a thing that... First of all, Bill Samsky was a Rinzai teacher and also a Kendo master, right? So he was involved with martial arts and he was also involved with Rinzai Zen practice, which focuses very specifically on breathing, right? And so he taught this workshop where we did... Report an error in the passage at 27:55 Highlight the passage at 27:55

28:25 We just did breathing exercises. And the breathing exercises, we probably won't have time. I was hoping to be able to do a few of them, but as usual, I've talked too long. Report an error in the passage at 28:25 Highlight the passage at 28:25

28:40 But just to briefly describe them, they essentially focused on the hara, which is this area sort of here on the body. And the kind of center of it is this, or the heart of it is this place. It's a couple inches below your navel, right in the middle of your body. And the idea of the style of breathing that he was describing and that we were practicing was that on the out-breath... Report an error in the passage at 28:40 Highlight the passage at 28:40

29:13 put a little bit of tension in your hara. And yoga practitioners will recognize this. This is essentially the bottom half of ujjayi breathing, right? You lock, in yoga terms, you lock the two lower locks, right? And you specifically don't lock your throat, and then you breathe out. And what happens is you leave your upper stomach muscles soft and you and you allow allow your your... Report an error in the passage at 29:13 Highlight the passage at 29:13

29:42 Your lower stomach muscles and your perineal and your sort of anal muscles to tighten a bit and allow the breath to happen, the out-breath to happen. And the experience is that, as Suzuki Roshi says in Zen Mind and Beginner's Mind, it's like there's a rock in your upper chest and it falls into your hara, pressing your breath out. Report an error in the passage at 29:42 Highlight the passage at 29:42

30:07 And then on the in-breath, You let that tension go, but you keep your attention in your hara, and you allow the breath to come in and fill the body. And a number of things happen when you do this, and you do it while you're sitting. Report an error in the passage at 30:07 Highlight the passage at 30:07

30:29 There's this interaction between the breath and the posture in which the... at the Report an error in the passage at 30:29 Highlight the passage at 30:29

30:35 On the out-breath, you can carry a lot of the tension in your upper body down into your hara and let it go. In particular, the tension that we often carry in our upper back can be allowed to just let go, and it's almost like you can feel the skin and the muscles on your upper back falling down towards your spine, basically. Report an error in the passage at 30:35 Highlight the passage at 30:35

30:56 And in terms of the lower body posture, Typically, when you do this and you tighten your hara, the lower body sort of spreads and settles, right? So it's actually really good, right? And when you breathe in, there's a kind of lift, and in particular, it makes it possible to keep your shoulders high and relaxed, basically. Report an error in the passage at 30:56 Highlight the passage at 30:56

31:21 So it's good, right? And, you know, Bill Zemsky, I mean, briefly, he... He described this as a sort of ancient practice that predates yoga, Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism, and has probably been around for millennia, more than that. And that has spread out all through South Asia and East Asia as part of various religious practices. Report an error in the passage at 31:21 Highlight the passage at 31:21

31:53 But also, he says that in Japan, People do hara development workshops and use these sort of breathing exercises as calisthenics in offices and stuff. And interestingly enough, having done this and having started working on it, I remembered a couple of things about how these practices also show up in the West. Report an error in the passage at 31:53 Highlight the passage at 31:53

32:21 So the first one was my... Middle school music teacher who was a great teacher, right? And he had to teach every year like about a hundred or so kids to sing, right? And how he would do it was he'd call them up on the stage, he'd put his hand on their hara, and he would say, okay, put your energy there, give yourself a little attention and support there, and sing. Report an error in the passage at 32:21 Highlight the passage at 32:21

32:51 And usually the first time they'd be like, ha, ha, ha. And then he'd say, no, a little bit more. And then they'd go, ah. And after a while, they were making a note. And sometimes he had to do this over and over again. But in the end, every single one of them could sing, which was kind of remarkable. And it was explicitly about using the hara as a support for the breath. Report an error in the passage at 32:51 Highlight the passage at 32:51

33:16 Amazing. And for making noises with your vocal cords. And then the other one was. I had a theater teacher in high school. I wasn't much of a theater kid, but I did have a theater teacher. And he would say these things like, and well, first of all, he was a student of the Stanislavski method, and I think he even knew Stanislavski. Report an error in the passage at 33:16 Highlight the passage at 33:16

33:42 But he would say, move from your belly. And he would demonstrate it, and he wasn't a particularly graceful guy, but when he would do this, he was like, everybody could see where he was going, see what he was doing, and he had this kind of energy and power. And he was clearly calling on his Hara to do this. And interestingly, I've discovered more recently that Stanislavski actually studied... Report an error in the passage at 33:42 Highlight the passage at 33:42

34:12 Pranayama practice and stuff like that. So he was explicitly bringing this stuff to Western theater students, basically. Report an error in the passage at 34:12 Highlight the passage at 34:12

34:21 So I guess what I wanted to say, I'm almost out of time, is that we probably won't have time to do any of these exercises, but it's really worth exploring the breath Report an error in the passage at 34:21 Highlight the passage at 34:21

34:43 As an important part and a really sort of formal and intentional part of your zazen practice, obviously, when you first start, you know, after I took this workshop, I was like, okay, I'm going to do this, right? And of course, it was the same struggle. It was really, you know, I would be like, I'm doing it now. And then, you know, I'd get myself into trouble by overdoing it or... Report an error in the passage at 34:43 Highlight the passage at 34:43

35:10 Or, you know, slapping myself on the wrist for not doing it well enough or something like that. But over time what happens is that, like riding a bicycle, like walking, like sitting zazen, you learn these sort of stored procedures for breathing, right? And the effort required to breathe in this way becomes less and less until in the end it kind of tails out to zero, right? Report an error in the passage at 35:10 Highlight the passage at 35:10

35:38 And you're just breathing in this way that's manifestly beneficial. And my experience with doing these exercises was that I'd walk out the door and my entire body felt like butter and was warm all the way through because of the work I'd been doing. And you don't need to breathe like this for an hour for that to happen. And you don't need to do it. Report an error in the passage at 35:38 Highlight the passage at 35:38

36:10 As though it were calisthenics, but to do it in this sort of subtle and intentional way is tremendously beneficial. Report an error in the passage at 36:10 Highlight the passage at 36:10

36:22 And to Report an error in the passage at 36:22 Highlight the passage at 36:22

36:27 keep your attention while sitting in your hara, it's almost like you're watching your body and watching the world from your hara. beneficial, right? Report an error in the passage at 36:27 Highlight the passage at 36:27

36:42 It also has a tremendous beneficial effect. It's related to the breath, but they're interdependent. Even when you're not focusing on the breath, you can carry a soft but clear focus in the hara. It's like there's a pearl resting at the bottom of your diaphragm, and it's... It takes in the out-breath and it releases the energy of the in-breath, basically. Report an error in the passage at 36:42 Highlight the passage at 36:42

37:29 And energy flows in and out of this pearl. Report an error in the passage at 37:29 Highlight the passage at 37:29

37:35 And you can carry it with you when you're walking around. You can carry it with you when you're lying down. So does anybody have any questions about any of that? I'm sorry I took so long to talk about it. I'm bad at that. Any questions? We probably have time for a few, right? Report an error in the passage at 37:35 Highlight the passage at 37:35

37:58 Oh, yeah, go ahead. Report an error in the passage at 37:58 Highlight the passage at 37:58

38:04 You mentioned Zazen was manifestly beneficial. I was wondering what sort of changes in your cognition you've noticed over the years as you've been practicing Zazen. Well, it's fascinating that you put it that way. Report an error in the passage at 38:04 Highlight the passage at 38:04

38:24 I've noticed almost no changes in my cognition, but I've noticed a huge change in how I relate to my cognitive faculty. Does that make sense? My sense is that the relationship that we bring up and explore in the context of Zazen is the relationship between our everyday cognitive faculty and... This broader attentive mode of being and relating to the world. And those two modes are deeply entangled, right? Report an error in the passage at 38:24 Highlight the passage at 38:24

39:03 They're constantly sending information back and forth and so on and so forth. But what happens is that when this mode, this mode that when big mind is a player in the activity of the moment, It softens the emotional drivers of our regular cognitive faculty and allows for and invites more information about what's going on than we usually allow when we're acting out of habit. Report an error in the passage at 39:03 Highlight the passage at 39:03

39:42 Does that make any sense? What do you think? Yes. Thank you. Yeah, that's really been my experience with it. I have the same old thoughts. God, do I have the same old thoughts. Report an error in the passage at 39:42 Highlight the passage at 39:42

39:58 And I'm like, wait, I first had that thought when I was three. What's going on here? But nonetheless, my life is totally different because of the... Report an error in the passage at 39:58 Highlight the passage at 39:58

40:20 The kind of difference in the dynamics of my everyday activity. Something like that. Report an error in the passage at 40:20 Highlight the passage at 40:20

40:32 Anything else? Report an error in the passage at 40:32 Highlight the passage at 40:32

40:47 Thank you. I was thinking about when your question was, what is zazen? And then Tim said doing nothing. And you said that was exactly right or something. Yeah. And I was like, oh, because my answer was everything. Report an error in the passage at 40:47 Highlight the passage at 40:47

41:07 Right, because I thought, well, okay, we sit and practice zazen, but it's called practice because it's practicing for, I mean, it's real, but it's also practicing for, if you're a non-monastic, when you're out and you're not practicing, but you're actually, it's Report an error in the passage at 41:07 Highlight the passage at 41:07

41:31 go time in your life, that hopefully, Or I guess I know this isn't supposed to be goal-oriented, but kind of is a goal for me, I guess, to be able to do that enough here so that when I'm out in the world and I feel myself in a stressful scenario that I can really connect back with the way my body is and my mind is when I'm here, which then will change my actions. Report an error in the passage at 41:31 Highlight the passage at 41:31

42:06 Yeah, that's exactly right. So I'm in Zazen when I'm out there. I mean, ideally, but I'm not. I try, but frequently I'm not. I think what my experience with the trajectory of that is that slowly you start to see that, again, your practice of Zazen has started to change the dynamic relationship between your... Report an error in the passage at 42:06 Highlight the passage at 42:06

42:35 Habitual responses to the world and your broader capacity for responding, basically. Does that make sense? Yeah, and like in some ways it has massively changed my behaviors. Like driving, I'm like so much better, chill, non-reactive driver. Yeah, that's a good thing. That's like, yeah. But here's what I'd say about the whole nothing thing. Report an error in the passage at 42:35 Highlight the passage at 42:35

43:04 The question is, when you say, what's Zazen, the question is, who's doing it? Everything. Well, yes, exactly. But at the same time, like, you know, so, you know, for example, Blanche Hartman, you know, bless her heart, used to tell this great story about how She too had practiced counting her breath and she went in to see Suzuki Roshi and said, I can really count my breath. It's really awesome. And he actually kind of yelled at her and he said, no, you don't sit Zazen. Report an error in the passage at 43:04 Highlight the passage at 43:04

43:51 Zazen sits Zazen, right? And so it's Report an error in the passage at 43:51 Highlight the passage at 43:51

44:02 not that there's nothing going on. It's that at least ideally, You're not doing any of it. It's doing it. And you're right. Report an error in the passage at 44:02 Highlight the passage at 44:02

44:17 Our Report an error in the passage at 44:17 Highlight the passage at 44:17

44:23 engagement with our embodied reality and the sensory reality that we experience through that embodied reality is Report an error in the passage at 44:23 Highlight the passage at 44:23

44:42 ungraspable and marvelous. The, the, the, Report an error in the passage at 44:42 Highlight the passage at 44:42

44:46 marvelous and And the request of Zazen is to take it in with a minimum, let's put it that way, of commentary and fiddling, leaving nothing out and adding nothing in. And that happens sometimes. Sometimes we comment and we add things in. Report an error in the passage at 44:46 Highlight the passage at 44:46

45:17 Thank you. Yeah, of course. Report an error in the passage at 45:17 Highlight the passage at 45:17

45:23 That might be it, right? Okay. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, please visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma. Report an error in the passage at 45:23 Highlight the passage at 45:23