Two Directions, One Way: Reflections on U.S. Soto Zen and Insight Buddhism

0:00 This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. ...and Report an error in the passage at 0:00 Highlight the passage at 0:00

0:24 say whatever your favorite greeting is in the moment to each other. Go for it. Oh, Report an error in the passage at 0:24 Highlight the passage at 0:24

0:53 you guys are fast. Report an error in the passage at 0:53 Highlight the passage at 0:53

0:57 So for those who don't know me, my name is... Keiryu Liên Shutt. I just realized that it's 20 years since I was ordained in this room this year. Report an error in the passage at 0:57 Highlight the passage at 0:57

1:20 Almost 15 years since I've had dharma transmission. And it's only my second time back since the... I'm giving a lecture since the renovation, and it's so nice to... And last time was in January, so I didn't get to see the upstairs here, so it's really lovely, and got to use the fancy bathroom upstairs and everything. Report an error in the passage at 1:20 Highlight the passage at 1:20

1:48 Who's here for the first time? Okay. All right. How's your experience so far? All right. Yeah? Okay. Well, I hope it improves. Report an error in the passage at 1:48 Highlight the passage at 1:48

2:02 No, I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean I hope it continues to improve. So I was asked recently to do some writing on the difference between Zen and insight practice. So I thought I'd share that with you all. I, like many people in the room, including Abbot David, if I remember correctly, started out in the insight tradition. Report an error in the passage at 2:02 Highlight the passage at 2:02

2:30 No? Oh, but you have had insight practice, yeah. Oh, I apologize. I should do my Zen form first. Thank you to Tim Natanto for the invitation to speak today, and of course, Abbot David. Report an error in the passage at 2:30 Highlight the passage at 2:30

2:50 Anyone else in the room I should thank? My teacher, my Zen teacher now, Shosan Victoria Austin, who's online, and my other teacher is Gail Fronstahl, who started out in Zen and now mostly teaches insight, and I'm also training intensely with him to be empowered in the insight tradition also. Report an error in the passage at 2:50 Highlight the passage at 2:50

3:18 Oh, and this next year here, I'll be back in person in this Room to Teach meditation training series, in person again since the pandemic. So that's really exciting. It's been online, and it's a great way to have access for people. So we appreciate that. And from the beginning, I've incorporated Report an error in the passage at 3:18 Highlight the passage at 3:18

3:47 Insight into Zen practice. In part, I like to say in the course, especially meditation training 1.0, the first one, it's really the craft of meditation. Report an error in the passage at 3:47 Highlight the passage at 3:47

4:02 And, you know, in Zen, in faith that we are Buddha, we enter Buddha's way. And so for me, faith is the beginning. beginning of Zen, or beginning of practice. Report an error in the passage at 4:02 Highlight the passage at 4:02

4:22 I like to begin there because what I really appreciate about Zen, and of course when I say Zen I mean Soto-Zen, this lineage, and I'll be very clear that I'm talking about convert Soto-Zen very specifically in this. lineage of Shinrin Suzuki Roshi. And when I talk about insight, or some of you might know it as vipassanā, I'm also talking about the convert American insight, mostly from the spirit rock tradition. Report an error in the passage at 4:22 Highlight the passage at 4:22

4:55 That's where I learned it. And in the years I learned in the early, the late 90s and early 2000s, it was mostly the Thai force style, the A Chan Cha, the teacher of Jack Kornfield. And a little bit Burmese. So in Zen, we begin as fools. In Zen, the most important thing is to be a Zen fool because we start with faith. In faith that we are Buddha, we enter Buddha's way. Report an error in the passage at 4:55 Highlight the passage at 4:55

5:33 And the faith is, you know, we say the posture itself is Buddha. When we go to sit down, or lie down or stand or walk any of the meditative positions we we are Buddha we take the posture of awakening and that in particular means that we begin to understand that we're already as azuki roshi said we're perfect the way we are when we could use a little help and it's a little bit of help that i Report an error in the passage at 5:33 Highlight the passage at 5:33

6:10 Bring in the insight, not to diminish insight, just that in Zen, you know, who here has been for Zazen instruction? Mostly you get posture instructions, wouldn't that be true? And how to count your breath. And then who here was at Zazen this morning or any other time, okay? Anyone tell you how to do anything down there? Report an error in the passage at 6:10 Highlight the passage at 6:10

6:38 No. You just stare at the wall. And zazen instruction, and earlier they include form instruction, which is now how you go in and out of the zendo, how you get on and off the platform, the tan, and face the wall and all that. And so it's this idea that we sit there in our Buddhanness. We're told how to take the posture of Buddha. Report an error in the passage at 6:38 Highlight the passage at 6:38

7:04 Then you just sit there in your Buddhanness. When I first went to Tassajara, the monastery of this lineage, in the first practice period, there were 18 of us who were first time there in the Tangara. David, I think you're one of those, yeah. And I remember one time we were sitting there, because it's silent all the time, right? Report an error in the passage at 7:04 Highlight the passage at 7:04

7:30 And then the Tanto, the head of practice then, said, wake up! And I remember after we all were like, whoa! Whoa, some teaching, you know? Some teaching. Turned out someone was asleep. And they were really annoyed, so that's why they were screaming out there, right? Or yelling out. Blanche, my root teacher and the first abbess of this lineage, you know, she sometimes would say, are you awake? Report an error in the passage at 7:30 Highlight the passage at 7:30

8:06 Quietly. She didn't yell so much. So we begin there, but I know Or, and I know, that's really hard for me to just sit in my awakeness. And so in the craft of meditation, I like to bring in some insight practices. Now, insight or vipassanā, and by the way, the word vipassanā in the Pāli, passana means to see. Report an error in the passage at 8:06 Highlight the passage at 8:06

8:41 And then V is like a modifier that makes it steady or focus or direct. So Vipassanā, that's why you get insight, like you really steady the awareness. Report an error in the passage at 8:41 Highlight the passage at 8:41

8:56 So I like to think of insight as giving us some instruction on what to do when things are difficult. Because to me, It's very hard to know my Buddha-ness, that I'm perfect already. And by the way, you might be going, what kind of perfect is she talking about? And for me, as a recovering perfectionist, perfect at first just meant very proper. Report an error in the passage at 8:56 Highlight the passage at 8:56

9:31 Was I pretty perfect, do you think, coming in? No, oh. Report an error in the passage at 9:31 Highlight the passage at 9:31

9:38 Okay, wow. Then I'm a good Zen student because I keep on trying. That's the other thing, right? So part of the not being told things is that actually we just keep showing up and trying or doing, engaging. So one way in which I would frame the two is that in insight, the focus on what? And in Zen, we focus on who. Now, do people know what the three marks of existence is? Report an error in the passage at 9:38 Highlight the passage at 9:38

10:18 Or more specifically, conditioned existence, which we are. There's a teaching of Buddhism, which is there's impermanence, there's not-self, and there's dukkha, which is often translated as suffering. Other translations are... Dis-ease, discontent, dissatisfaction. I myself appreciate overwhelmed, though not a scholarly implication of overwhelmed. Report an error in the passage at 10:18 Highlight the passage at 10:18

10:49 Some, like Thanissara Bhikkhu would say it's stress. So it's the suffering that we can do something about. So for me, while these are true of all of the sects of Buddhism, the way that The focus of the ways of practice is in insight, there's much more of a focus on understanding impermanence. Report an error in the passage at 10:49 Highlight the passage at 10:49

11:20 Or how when we hang on to permanence, the chance of dukkha, the third one, arises much more easily. This is why in insight practice, there's very much a focus on noticing what is happening moment to moment to moment. And essentially, the pivotal point is to notice how things arise and fall. They're not permanent and solid. Report an error in the passage at 11:20 Highlight the passage at 11:20

11:51 This is why, for instance, in insight in particular, when you practice Meditation, let's say you have a pain. The idea is to note the pain in a way that you see it's arising, right, and it's falling. So we do that by really clarifying what exactly is happening at that place. What is happening? Notice I just said, what is happening at that place? Report an error in the passage at 11:51 Highlight the passage at 11:51

12:32 So for instance, another way that I would put the two is an insight. Let's say I have a hand. In the practice, this is suffering. Dukkha is a solid mass. Report an error in the passage at 12:32 Highlight the passage at 12:32

12:52 And we practice noticing what is the sensation. Let's say my knee hurts at the knee. The actual physical sensation. What are the emotions? that are there when that's happening and what are the thoughts that arise as that's happening what are the patterns habitual reactive patterns the pattern mostly that the two that are mesh a lot is your emotion and your thought if you have an emotion there's some thoughts that are often associated or you have a thought and there are emotions attached for instance dentists Report an error in the passage at 12:52 Highlight the passage at 12:52

13:40 Probably most of you have some kind of emotion with dentists, no? Probably not joy, unless you're a dentist, right? Then you're like, oh, yeah, more clients. So those are often enmeshed, so sensations where you focus a lot, but the patterns, patterns that come up is what's key. Report an error in the passage at 13:40 Highlight the passage at 13:40

14:01 Because you could think dentist, ouch, pain, I don't want that, I'm not going to the dentist. Report an error in the passage at 14:01 Highlight the passage at 14:01

14:10 Fear of pain and then disliking and then your teeth gets worse or your sore tooth gets worse and then it aggravates the pain. So the pattern and then the field of awareness. And notice what happens then when you can source out these things. Then letting go happens on its own or more easily. Report an error in the passage at 14:10 Highlight the passage at 14:10

14:41 Now, whereas in Zen, don't think about it so much. Don't try to source it all out. Just sit. Just sit. Pain, pain, pain, pain. Just like this. And you don't even note it. Someone gets what I'm talking about. So Zen asks us to be with it completely and just engage fully. Report an error in the passage at 14:41 Highlight the passage at 14:41

15:13 And if anything, It's the who that is meeting this. Who is it that's arising? Who is it that's arising? This is where the forms asks us or gives us the update. The container practice is so much off the cushion. Yes, we sit in completeness. We sit in completeness. How we source it out is when we keep engaging. Report an error in the passage at 15:13 Highlight the passage at 15:13

15:45 The most important thing in Zen is wholeheartedness. Report an error in the passage at 15:45 Highlight the passage at 15:45

15:52 Wholeheartedness. Wholeheartedness. Shit, I messed up, but I keep going. I keep engaging. Because I keep watching. What is the self, the sense of self, that comes up and solidifies? That brings me more suffering. Report an error in the passage at 15:52 Highlight the passage at 15:52

16:28 Now, when I was first at Tassahara, I went in the... We arrived in April. I was thinking maybe we were in the same van, but I don't think we were. And I was day off head of cabin crew, which means I cleaned the cabins for the guests. But then when we had some time, we would do other things. So one time, early on, and I actually had never... Report an error in the passage at 16:28 Highlight the passage at 16:28

17:02 I had done Zen before, but I had gone to get the, in those days in 2002, you had to work the whole summer, the five and a half months of guest season, to earn two practice period credits, right? Two, three months practice periods in the winter. And there was no partial at that time. It was all or nothing. Wholehearted. And I didn't have any Zen practice, but I... Report an error in the passage at 17:02 Highlight the passage at 17:02

17:32 I didn't want to go to the East Coast for various reasons. And so I was just going to do one practice period. So I had very little Zen experience. So one day we were going to paint the walls of the pine cabins. And the shika, the head of practice, was telling us how they wanted it done. Report an error in the passage at 17:32 Highlight the passage at 17:32

18:00 I thought, oh, I think this is a more efficient way to do it. And so I voiced my helpfulness. And the shikha said, just do it. Report an error in the passage at 18:00 Highlight the passage at 18:00

18:14 This is the Zen way. Just do it. And I thought, no. I know this would be more efficient. In fact, I realized I pride myself as an efficiency expert right i knew how things would be most but you know that's what they kept saying and i just like right and did it and i realized that part of what's important in the practice of zen is that we're asked to engage because our mind the habitual mind the discursive mind will go in those Now that I have more insight, study and understanding, it's that habitual patterns of thinking, right? Report an error in the passage at 18:14 Highlight the passage at 18:14

19:15 Like the five hindrances. The five hindrances, hardly ever hear them in Zen, but they're emotional and mental patterns that the Buddha taught as what gets in the way of your concentration. Report an error in the passage at 19:15 Highlight the passage at 19:15

19:32 It gets in the way of that... focus mind that settle and compose and they are essential pleasure aversion and ill will sloth and torpor restlessness and anxiety and skeptical doubt or indecisiveness Gil prefers indecisiveness these days so well there are five set and they're taught around concentration um it's one framing of the fourth noble truth that the Buddha of patterns of dharma or phenomena arising of emotional mental states that the Buddha taught as what we need to explore to understand liberation in the inside tradition and so these are one way of framing our how we perceive experience and while there are five of them and we have them all most of us have one one or two but usually one is the predominant that it's like our go-to given conditions of our life and our conditioning right and so that kind of colors our perception now while they're taught for concentration they're when we're not careful of what they are as the pattern like the mood that's in our heart and mind field Report an error in the passage at 19:32 Highlight the passage at 19:32

21:06 Then we take how we perceive to be the truth. They're like the motivation or the mood factor. So for instance, sitting here, how many of you already thought about yummy things to eat after this or your breakfast, right? In class, in meetings, these things come up all the time. This is why, you know. There's food. There's stuff at meetings. How many of you have thought, I don't like this. I don't like her. Report an error in the passage at 21:06 Highlight the passage at 21:06

21:45 It's okay. Go for it. Remind me your name. Report an error in the passage at 21:45 Highlight the passage at 21:45

21:54 Write that down. It's too hot. It's too cold. It's too this, too that. How many of you have... on. Alright. Report an error in the passage at 21:54 Highlight the passage at 21:54

22:06 Restless. Restless, anxious, like... And how many of you... Oh, I reverse these sometimes. Sloth and torpor. Right? How many of you are ready? This is why you fall asleep and practice a lot, too. It also can cover up a lot of other things. And then how many of you have already thought, I don't know, I don't know. I could have gone to mass instead, or I could have gone to brunch, but I don't know why I'm here. Report an error in the passage at 22:06 Highlight the passage at 22:06

22:43 I'm not sure. I'm not sure about this. So these color the way we perceive, and it's what drives us a lot of time unless we're aware. So in that story about the cabin, people who know me will already know which is my go-to. Aversive and ill will. Report an error in the passage at 22:43 Highlight the passage at 22:43

23:09 No, that's not how it should be done. I know how it should be done. That's not right. There's a better way. The aversive, not person, mind you, it's the arising. And so again, in insight, we would watch how that arise. What are the tightness of the body around aversion, right? When you watch people in the Zen dove, they're sitting like this, they probably have an aversive response. Report an error in the passage at 23:09 Highlight the passage at 23:09

23:36 And when they're sitting like this, they're probably having a sensual pleasure, kind of, I like it, I want more of it. And when there's a lot of... Unless it's a certain jhāna state, there's a lot of moving around, there's a lot of what I like to think of as the other three, anxiety causing it, or sloth and torpor, or just doubt, fragmentation. Report an error in the passage at 23:36 Highlight the passage at 23:36

24:00 So when we're not aware of that, that's what drives the way we view the world. In Zen, we want to watch for how, with that view, we think that is us. Report an error in the passage at 24:00 Highlight the passage at 24:00

24:19 If I solidify around that tendency I have, then I don't want to do anything. My girlfriend, we're both aversive type. Sorry, Deb. Deb's used to me calling things out about her. But this one's clear. So this morning, what did she ask me? How are you? Right? And she's asking for it because she knows before I do anything, Report an error in the passage at 24:19 Highlight the passage at 24:19

24:52 There's always a period when I'm like, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. Because the versa type just wants to, like, you know, the tendency is just to go, no. Right? Notice the back here. No. I'm not perfect. I'm not perfect. And so there's always a holding back. Report an error in the passage at 24:52 Highlight the passage at 24:52

25:16 But when I'm aware of that as a tendency of how I hold myself and carry myself in the world, then it becomes a thing where I'm aware of it. I don't have to push it away. I don't have to get rid of it because it's a habitual tendency that I learn for really good reasons in life, really good reasons, right? Report an error in the passage at 25:16 Highlight the passage at 25:16

25:38 I've had a lot of various experience in my life that make meeting life super hard. Report an error in the passage at 25:38 Highlight the passage at 25:38

25:48 And so it's not to invalidate that. The practice isn't to say, forget all that, I have to be a new person. The practice is to notice that, either as how it affects the emotion, the thoughts, the sense fields, and the pattern it tends to take into, right? Unpleasant, I don't like it, I won't do it, or resistance. Report an error in the passage at 25:48 Highlight the passage at 25:48

26:23 But when I'm aware that that is there, I can say, oh, that's a sense of myself that is impermanent and not solid. I am more than this habitual way of viewing the world and sense of myself. Like I want to say I'm aversive. Even when I say aversive type, most of you, myself included, probably thinking, oh, yeah, that's how she is. Report an error in the passage at 26:23 Highlight the passage at 26:23

26:53 We could do that to other people, right? Don't forget that selfing. We self others. We don't just self ourself. We self others and groups of people. Report an error in the passage at 26:53 Highlight the passage at 26:53

27:04 How you chose where you sat maybe had some form since this is a Zen center, but some of it has to do with your sense of how you carry yourself in here. Where is the most pleasant spot for those who are driven by sense pleasure? Oh, the sun is so beautiful over here. I'm going to sit in the sun. Report an error in the passage at 27:04 Highlight the passage at 27:04

27:26 I don't know about that person. I'm going to sit over here. Where can I skedaddle out of here as quickly as possible in case I just can't stand it? Report an error in the passage at 27:26 Highlight the passage at 27:26

27:39 Where can I fall asleep and no one will notice? Should I be here? Maybe I'll go sit in the dining room. So these are ways in which, if we're aware, we I need it with compassion and then with tools for how to work with it. So in the field of aversiveness, I think this is partly why I, you know, Zen for me is very hard. Report an error in the passage at 27:39 Highlight the passage at 27:39

28:09 I would love, you know, I go to insight retreat and I just want to be left alone. I'll confess, I go with a hoodie. I do the whole blanket thing. I just want to be left alone. And then we're not supposed to cover our heads. No blankets. Cold. Cold completely. Hot completely. What is that? Who is here? Report an error in the passage at 28:09 Highlight the passage at 28:09

28:40 What is the buddhaness of hot and cold? To experience it completely. So the insight thing is to, we know the components so that when we get closer and closer, eventually it is the totality of experience. Whereas in Zen, just be the total, be the total, be the total. So let's see, I'm already behind because I have like six things. Report an error in the passage at 28:40 Highlight the passage at 28:40

29:11 So I've only done one, the what versus the who. Okay, well, I'll summarize by saying, and part of the what and the who, so here's the thing. Report an error in the passage at 29:11 Highlight the passage at 29:11

29:24 The who keeps arising anyways. It's not that insight, you don't look at the who, mind you. You get there. So the who, In terms of the two differentials, I would say the who is very much more, the who and insight is we strengthen our witnessing. This is more about the way we perceive, the way we process data, raw data. The reason why mindfulness has become, my opinion completely, mindfulness has become really popular. Report an error in the passage at 29:24 Highlight the passage at 29:24

29:57 And especially for health reasons and stuff. And by health I mean both physical and emotional and mental. It's because it strengthens the witness. Report an error in the passage at 29:57 Highlight the passage at 29:57

30:09 In mindfulness there's always an object to observe and a subject. Because who is it that's observing? And so it helps us to give us some space away from what we tend to enmesh with already. Report an error in the passage at 30:09 Highlight the passage at 30:09

30:32 Depression. What are the sensations? How do the emotions come and go? It's not a cure-all, mind you. It's not the only thing when there's physical, emotional, mental health issues. That's why it's popular or useful. Useful tool, skillful tool. Because it strengthens the witness so that you can see how it comes and goes. It's not solid. It's not enduring. Report an error in the passage at 30:32 Highlight the passage at 30:32

31:01 Whereas In Zen, again, the thing is we strengthen the being. How am I in this moment? How am I? What is a skillful way to be with this? And they both have skillfulness. And Report an error in the passage at 31:01 Highlight the passage at 31:01

31:28 then also in that, I say these are the two Cs of the two ways. In insight, it really supports us to understand that we have... choice because Report an error in the passage at 31:28 Highlight the passage at 31:28

31:46 when you can differentiate a sensation is just a sensation an emotion is just an emotion a thought is just a thought in particular then and and you have that one the ability to identify what each is in the moment of happening and then to be able to focus your attention on where you want to focus Report an error in the passage at 31:46 Highlight the passage at 31:46

32:16 For instance, walking into a room of many people. You know, when you're sitting there watching someone, what's your name again? Heiko. Heiko, thank you, I'm hard of hearing. Heiko, have you ever done a ceremony? Not at the mat, yeah? Yeah, so you can watch it a million times until you're taught how to do it, which you're not allowed to until you've been... Report an error in the passage at 32:16 Highlight the passage at 32:16

32:50 she sewed, morning service anyways. And so then there's just many little minutiae that makes it proper. Oh, your hand a certain way when you approach. Oh, your hand a certain way when you leave. I'm a form queen, so you don't step on the line. There's all sorts of little things you can learn. Really great for perfectionists until you crash and burn. Report an error in the passage at 32:50 Highlight the passage at 32:50

33:20 Which is actually, I think, part of Zen practice. When you meet that, and you keep meeting your sense of who you should be so much of the time, and you see how you keep suffering when you think, I will be perfect at this, I will be perfect at this, I will be perfect at this. Report an error in the passage at 33:20 Highlight the passage at 33:20

33:42 I know Hoka doesn't think. Spell it so they don't know. H-E-I. H-E-I. K-O. K-O. What does it mean? Calm lake. Calm lake? Oh, all right. A talking calm lake. That might be your full dharma name. Anyway, that's a whole nother story when we used to come up names for each other. Anyway, mine would have been, never mind, just not. Report an error in the passage at 33:42 Highlight the passage at 33:42

34:13 Grouchy, whatever, okay. I am the aversive types. Anyway, I divert. So when you come up to do this, there are many things so, If you keep on thinking you're going to be perfect, at some point you're going to fall apart. It will. And I think that's the gift of Zen, to be perfectly honest. Report an error in the passage at 34:13 Highlight the passage at 34:13

34:37 In both practices, the idea is you dissolve the sense of what you think something is, or you allow for the dissolving. That's a better way of putting it. I think sensation is solid, but really it just comes and goes. I think my emotions, I think my sense of myself is solid, but it just comes and goes depending on condition. Report an error in the passage at 34:37 Highlight the passage at 34:37

35:04 In Soto Zen, when you go down to do a full prostration, you raise your hands above your ears like this. Not like this. Because the Buddha is standing on your hands. Do you know that? You don't want to flip him over your shoulders. Report an error in the passage at 35:04 Highlight the passage at 35:04

35:25 Right? And mine, I was so good like this. Report an error in the passage at 35:25 Highlight the passage at 35:25

35:33 Don't look. And they're just equally above and equally below. And my fingers are nicely together. When I ordain, a senior person said, wow, you're a form queen, aren't you? But then one time at Tassajara, when I went to do it, I was so proud of myself. I thought my forms were so great. But just worn down, worn down, worn down. And one time I went like this. Report an error in the passage at 35:33 Highlight the passage at 35:33

36:03 And it was like, I give up. I give up the struggle of just holding on to the sense of self as like this solid and perfect. Report an error in the passage at 36:03 Highlight the passage at 36:03

36:21 Someone says, oh, you're a form queen. Now I just hold it as me. That's just someone saying it. I like it. I think it's okay. It's not harming anyone. But when does it harm me or others if I hold on? Report an error in the passage at 36:21 Highlight the passage at 36:21

36:39 I was just watching a ceremony recently, and I found myself going about forms, and then I was like, whoa, right? No need. Report an error in the passage at 36:39 Highlight the passage at 36:39

36:50 But it's going to keep arising. Report an error in the passage at 36:50 Highlight the passage at 36:50

36:56 So when we understand that there are ways in which we have a choice where we pay attention, I'm back to choice. If I stay with the thought that I am perfect, then I'm going to tighten around it when I do something wrong. Report an error in the passage at 36:56 Highlight the passage at 36:56

37:16 When I can notice also the tightness that comes from holding myself to perfectionism, when I'm upright because I think I should be upright and that's the way I should carry myself, there's tension. There's a huge difference in being upright because I'm aware that in this posture of uprightness, I am more aware. Report an error in the passage at 37:16 Highlight the passage at 37:16

37:47 I am more receptive. Especially if my tendency is to go like this because I'm afraid of the world. And again, I may have had really great reasons to be afraid of conditions of the world. But in this moment, is this fear here? When it's not, am I able to be open? The posture of awakening is one that's able to receive fully. Report an error in the passage at 37:47 Highlight the passage at 37:47

38:26 So when I can focus on, oh yeah, I actually love forms. Oh, well, okay, there was a mistake. Or that wasn't quite as instructed. Then can I let that go and move on to the next thing? It's when I hold on to how I should have, I should have, I should have. There's where my suffering. Report an error in the passage at 38:26 Highlight the passage at 38:26

38:52 Now, whereas to me, the other C in Zen, we are asked to commit. Commit, commit. Commit. Like this, like this, like this, like this. Things as they are. Things as they are. Things as they are. Things as they are. I'm as I am. You as you are. Am I open to meeting you as you appear? Report an error in the passage at 38:52 Highlight the passage at 38:52

39:26 Not like what I do. Next moment. You might enjoy. I saw a smile. It might be enjoyment. Oh, there's a frown. Nope. Or just what it is. Report an error in the passage at 39:26 Highlight the passage at 39:26

39:46 That way I would frame it. It feels a little bit... And again, I'm just saying, luckily in Zen, Dogen says that a Zen master at life is one continuous mistake. Report an error in the passage at 39:46 Highlight the passage at 39:46

40:03 Because you can't be perfect. I don't know what he meant, but that's how I take it. You can't be perfect, and the moment you open your mouth, it's already wrong. Report an error in the passage at 40:03 Highlight the passage at 40:03

40:14 Because the dharma is inconceivable. Every time I say anything, I'm just pointing to a little bit of it. Or more correctly, I'm going like that. This is how I see it. What do you think? What do you think? It's like this. I see it like this. I see it like this. So everything Report an error in the passage at 40:14 Highlight the passage at 40:14

40:43 I say here, of course, is from my perspective. So another way that I would say in... Insight, and I think this is why, in part, my opinion completely, people really like to come to Buddhism, especially in insight, because the popular thing is secular, you know? There's no religiousness. Faith, faith has to do with, most of us think faith has to do with religiousness. Another talk completely. Report an error in the passage at 40:43 Highlight the passage at 40:43

41:17 But there's that thing where it's like, oh, in insight you could say, prove it to me. You know, I love to go on an insight retreat because they say, do this, and then this will happen, and then you do this, and this will happen. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. I love learning and information. And then they don't tell you anything, so how will you know? Except for when you're doing forms or moving around with others. Report an error in the passage at 41:17 Highlight the passage at 41:17

41:45 So there's kind of a prove it. And in fact, really settle into that, like, know for yourself. It's kind of the insight motto, you know, for yourself, right? I say this, but prove it, prove it. Is this your experience? Is this your experience? And again, it fits everything. I'm just kind of saying it focuses more on that. Whereas in Zen, we ask you to have faith, and faith that you're a Buddha, and you, just walking in here, have entered Buddha's way. Report an error in the passage at 41:45 Highlight the passage at 41:45

42:27 And it never leaves you, actually. When you leave here, Before you came, you already had Buddha. You're already Buddha. But here's where we hopefully have you meet your Buddhanness. Report an error in the passage at 42:27 Highlight the passage at 42:27

42:39 Meet your Buddhanness, meet your Buddhanness, meet your Buddhanness. Not always with a smile. Right? Not always with a smile. Not always pleasant. Hopefully, the thing is that we learn that as you are is well enough. Report an error in the passage at 42:39 Highlight the passage at 42:39

43:04 And so for me, actually, you know, I never thought I would become a priest or be religious. Report an error in the passage at 43:04 Highlight the passage at 43:04

43:15 Asked me what I was going to grow when I, you know, be when I grew up. I would never have guessed this. And as with practice, for me, my sense of faith in the Buddha way has strengthened. And so to me these days, as my students who know, I like to think of faith as Strengthened confidence. Report an error in the passage at 43:15 Highlight the passage at 43:15

43:42 Strengthened confidence. I have strengthened my confidence in how practice, be it you call it insight or zen or Rajarana, whatever you want to name it, Report an error in the passage at 43:42 Highlight the passage at 43:42

43:58 will support the seeing of where suffering that we can do something about can arise, be it through solidifying around. our experience as a being especially a sensory emotion and thought or as our sense of ourself so while the two might have these differences that i'm setting up for you it's kind of like two directions right remember the three marks of existence impermanence not self and dukkha so one way is to see where there's when we can see the impermanence of things as they arise and fall, our chance of dukkha lesson. The other is to see how our sense of self is not solid or enduring. Report an error in the passage at 43:58 Highlight the passage at 43:58

44:56 And that also lessens our dukkha. So where there are two directions, they're the same way. pointing towards the alleviation and the ending of suffering. Report an error in the passage at 44:56 Highlight the passage at 44:56

45:14 Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma. Report an error in the passage at 45:14 Highlight the passage at 45:14