The Friendliness of Not Knowing

0:00 This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Report an error in the passage at 0:00 Highlight the passage at 0:00

0:15 Thank you, San Francisco Zen Center, for inviting me to give a talk. So many people have helped me so many along the way. I just can't name them all. Report an error in the passage at 0:15 Highlight the passage at 0:15

0:31 One person I cannot fail to mention is Shunryu Suzuki, one of the founders of the Zen Feast in North America. And definitely a main cause of my being here today. Report an error in the passage at 0:31 Highlight the passage at 0:31

0:52 I also want to respectfully thank my previous and now deceased teachers. Report an error in the passage at 0:52 Highlight the passage at 0:52

1:03 They both encouraged me when I was most unwell and new to practice. There have been others too. They would be delighted with the noticeable transformation. Report an error in the passage at 1:03 Highlight the passage at 1:03

1:20 I experience in both body and mind due mainly to Zen practice. Thank you for being in this room with me as well as those The Report an error in the passage at 1:20 Highlight the passage at 1:20

1:49 topic of my talk today is not knowing is a friendly state of mind. Before going further into the topic, I would like to tell you that I come to do this dharma talk from a very humble state of mind. While I was writing it, I noticed how much the habitual reflex of saying, I know, is rooted in my small mind. Report an error in the passage at 1:49 Highlight the passage at 1:49

2:21 Let me have compassion for myself and for all. Report an error in the passage at 2:21 Highlight the passage at 2:21

2:30 I'm also going to first translate not knowing is a friendly state of mind in French. I call doing this the Anlor signature, and I try to remember to do it in all of my dharma talks as a mark of respect, a nod of honor to my native language and culture. Twenty-three formative years of living somewhere else is a major contribution to my current being. Report an error in the passage at 2:30 Highlight the passage at 2:30

3:07 So, in French, the words not knowing is a friendly state of mind translates as ne pas savoir est un état d 'esprit amical, the original phrase. Not Knowing is Most Intimate appears in several collections of koans. In the original transmission of the koan, it reads, Gishen asked, Where are you going? Fayan replied, On an ongoing pilgrimage. Gishen said, Why do you go on a pilgrimage? Report an error in the passage at 3:07 Highlight the passage at 3:07

3:55 Fayan replied, I don't know. Gishen said, Not knowing is most intimate. At these words, Fayan instantly experienced enlightenment. Report an error in the passage at 3:55 Highlight the passage at 3:55

4:14 Many, many very good dharma talks have been written on this topic of not knowing. And when I started to write this dharma talk, at times I really was quite ashamed of myself. A relatively recently ordained Zen priest for tackling a... Topics so often discussed by seasoned Dharma teachers. At the same time, each person is unique and each Dharma talk reflects the teacher's own orientation, as a Dharma friend of mine titled this recent Dharma talk. Report an error in the passage at 4:14 Highlight the passage at 4:14

4:57 In order to maintain some flexibility a little bit with the sentence, I thought it might be useful to talk about friendly state of mind as well. A state of mind... Often changes depending on what's happening around us and whether we're in small or big mind modes, kind of. Report an error in the passage at 4:57 Highlight the passage at 4:57

5:23 In 2006, Norman Fisher wrote in a talk posted on the Everyday Zen website. Everyday Zen is Norman's song. So here it is. Many teachers have made this one phrase, not knowing is most intimate, the heart of their teaching, repeating it. And then he also adds later in that talk, First of all, let me back up and say something basic about Zen practice. Report an error in the passage at 5:23 Highlight the passage at 5:23

6:05 As one of my teachers used to put it, Zen is a practice of phrases. The practice of phrases is not limited to Zen. It is common in almost all religious traditions. Now, Report an error in the passage at 6:05 Highlight the passage at 6:05

6:24 the way I see it, it's completely human that our state of mind is often more about mundane stuff than about big mind, where this Zen not knowing might usually be experienced. I mean, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. Also, one might say that since Zen overall is a system addressing suffering, it presents itself as knowing. Report an error in the passage at 6:24 Highlight the passage at 6:24

6:50 I mean, that's an interesting puzzle, what I call, but I've heard it called to, a Zen paradox. It encourages us to keep a light touch. I live outside of a monastery in an environment that is often not so conducive to big mind state. Report an error in the passage at 6:50 Highlight the passage at 6:50

7:21 And it's often a daily struggle to remain in the friendly, in that state, in the friendly big mind state. So as I was writing this talk and sharing about it with yet another Dhamma friend, I told her how writing this talk made me more aware of how often I say, I know, during the course of the day. And she was responding to this. And I turned toward her saying, I know, I know. Report an error in the passage at 7:21 Highlight the passage at 7:21

7:52 We both burst out laughing and we shared a friendly state of mind there. It is true that we need to know, of course, certain things at times. I mean, when I was a parent, I needed to know where my young child was all the time. I need to know how I will pay the rent and so on. Report an error in the passage at 7:52 Highlight the passage at 7:52

8:18 It's one thing to know about mundane, necessary daily facts. I try to remember it as an opportunity to practice my patience. Report an error in the passage at 8:18 Highlight the passage at 8:18

8:55 But then I'm afraid that when somebody asks the extreme know-it-all, then my patience is quite limited. And I experienced this recently with an autistic person caring on and on about his favorite topic. Report an error in the passage at 8:55 Highlight the passage at 8:55

9:11 That said, the fact is, in general, I often do not know how much another person actually does know or what they're going through. So my two conclusions here are One, I strive to be less a blowhard myself. And two, I want to be more forgiving of others and remain in a friendly state of mind. Report an error in the passage at 9:11 Highlight the passage at 9:11

9:41 So here is a story about this from my childhood. When I was a young child, most everyone around me and especially my mother and many of her family who lived around us, had ideas of how I should behave, how I ought I really like that the word be is in the word behave. I felt much more comfortable with people who did not think they knew everything about me. Report an error in the passage at 9:41 Highlight the passage at 9:41

10:14 And at that time, they were few and far between. I was simply unable to be and behave in a way. have made sense to the people around me. Report an error in the passage at 10:14 Highlight the passage at 10:14

10:29 This no matter how hard I tried. It made me very sad and also had great effects on my well-being. I started to eat less, I hardly slept, I turned in bed in anguish listening to every little sound. Thoughts of suicide entered my mind. quite regularly. I was a very troubled child. Now keep in mind that I was later diagnosed autistic and my childhood behaviors and ways were quite autistic. One time, I swam away in the Atlantic Ocean. Report an error in the passage at 10:29 Highlight the passage at 10:29

11:09 I live by the Atlantic Ocean. With the thought in mind of eventually drowning. Luckily, a small fisherman boat brought me back to the shore. Through those years, Other people thinking they knew how I was and should be caused me a lot of pain. Now here I want to bear in mind at all times that it takes two to tango, and I definitely was half of the dance. Report an error in the passage at 11:09 Highlight the passage at 11:09

11:43 I understood after I was diagnosed and had started a Zen practice that I blamed my poor mother for all of my autistic ways. Report an error in the passage at 11:43 Highlight the passage at 11:43

11:55 I find it very interesting that one of the very first people after the fisherman along the way who helped save me sat Zazen, a rarity at that time in my overarching Catholic town. Report an error in the passage at 11:55 Highlight the passage at 11:55

12:15 When my parents were at a loss about me, I went to live with her for six months. That's when I got strong enough a little bit to get going. Report an error in the passage at 12:15 Highlight the passage at 12:15

12:27 Also, I ought to let you know that my mother was anxiously waiting for me when the boat brought me back to the shore. And as I was remembering this a few days ago, I just cried and cried like I hadn't in a long time. Report an error in the passage at 12:27 Highlight the passage at 12:27

12:50 It was the dark of morning and I had to resort to my old habit of biting into a pillow in my younger years. It used to be my own flesh. No, I'm not going to do it. That I bit into. I will end this story by telling that to this day I regularly encounter the same state of mind with many people assuming that because I'm autistic they know this or that about me. Report an error in the passage at 12:50 Highlight the passage at 12:50

13:22 And they're just not the friends I want to have. Report an error in the passage at 13:22 Highlight the passage at 13:22

13:29 Not knowing is a friendly state of mind. The importance of developing a state of mind of not knowing extends to everything and everyone, whether they are disabled or not. And in ways I just don't know. I'm so fortunate that I'm around people with a Zen practice. Report an error in the passage at 13:29 Highlight the passage at 13:29

13:53 Really. And we all realize together, little by little, or not all fast, a not knowing is a friendly state of mind. Friendship is a kind of intimacy, and intimacy is a definite source of comfort. Report an error in the passage at 13:53 Highlight the passage at 13:53

14:16 As is often the case with the understanding of phrases, I bet each of you in this room has a different understanding of the words in the phrase, not knowing is a friendly state of mind. During the Q &A part of my dharma talks, At my own little saṅgha, artsit, I'm often struck by the different perspectives that people come up with, how interesting they are. Report an error in the passage at 14:16 Highlight the passage at 14:16

14:49 There is often a lack of guile in autistic people who mostly make up that saṅgha. But by not always being so sure we know something, we're certainly allowing for real friendships to develop, and that's no small matter. Report an error in the passage at 14:49 Highlight the passage at 14:49

15:11 Jack Kornfield writes in his 2015 book, The Wise Heart, be aware of all the thoughts and opinions you have about how it should be, how they should be. Report an error in the passage at 15:11 Highlight the passage at 15:11

15:27 Now recognize that you don't really know. Maybe the wrong thing will lead to something better. You don't know. Report an error in the passage at 15:27 Highlight the passage at 15:27

15:42 Kornfield's last sentence. Maybe the wrong thing will lead to something better is an example of something I hadn't thought about that I did not know. For me, remaining open to the possibility that I do not always know includes at times what some classic dharma texts say. Report an error in the passage at 15:42 Highlight the passage at 15:42

16:06 One common feeling during Zen practice and life in general might be to focus on only one side and forget the larger picture. Report an error in the passage at 16:06 Highlight the passage at 16:06

16:18 Maybe not forget it, but we're not talking about it at that time. Anyway, from the very beginning of my practice, I have often felt uneasy with what sometimes is written in a classic dharma text. And I bet you are too at times. And my hope is that... Report an error in the passage at 16:18 Highlight the passage at 16:18

16:45 You do not stop your Zen practice as soon as some sticky stuff shows up. There is a lot of wisdom in the text, in the texts overall. So here again is a place where the not knowing state of mind can be your friend. An example in my experience is that in most Zen meditation settings, Report an error in the passage at 16:45 Highlight the passage at 16:45

17:20 There is an assumption that startle reactions might reveal a practitioner's lack of mental stillness. In Report an error in the passage at 17:20 Highlight the passage at 17:20

17:33 the Awakening of Faith text, traditionally attributed to Aspargosa, the text says that one who practices the samādhi of suchness diligently and wholeheartedly will gain ten advantages in this life. I'm now going to read here all ten points. Only the tenth one, as it is exactly relevant to my point that we can never be so sure of anything. Report an error in the passage at 17:33 Highlight the passage at 17:33

18:02 It says, Upon attaining samādhi, the practitioner will not be startled by any sound from without. As an autistic person, this reads as a pronouncement that is I'm somewhat blind to neurodivergence, and it also motivated me to speak on this topic. I often tense up and may startle quite often when there is a sudden sound. Report an error in the passage at 18:02 Highlight the passage at 18:02

18:36 I mean, after so much time on the cushion, I really can completely understand how this came to be written. After all, it is true that I am visibly much more grounded and calmer than I used to be. Report an error in the passage at 18:36 Highlight the passage at 18:36

18:54 And in fact, it might be difficult to observe that what's going on in my body, how I tense up and how I jump sometimes. My partner of the last 17 years says that I'm the most sensory sensitive person he has ever met. And he knows many autistic people. He thinks my brain should be wired for science. My entire body clenches, my entire body, when doors are slammed. Report an error in the passage at 18:54 Highlight the passage at 18:54

19:26 Sneezing happens or when the clappers are hit at the end of kin hin, and this does not go away. There is a New York Times bestseller book published in 2016, written by a 13-year-old Japanese autistic boy, which is entitled The Reason Why I Jump by Naoki Higashida. Report an error in the passage at 19:26 Highlight the passage at 19:26

19:56 Based on my personal experience and those of others, I encourage you to trust that not knowing is a friendly state of mind. Just is going to be naturally come to be understood when practicing and repeatedly spending time on the cushion. Report an error in the passage at 19:56 Highlight the passage at 19:56

20:18 There is no need to do other than zazen. No need. Zazen. Again and again. I hope my words have not hurt anyone. My big fear. Always. Report an error in the passage at 20:18 Highlight the passage at 20:18

20:40 I mean, for all my dharma talks to be first about encouraging people to do zazen, this crucial decision that all of us here have already chosen to do. Report an error in the passage at 20:40 Highlight the passage at 20:40

20:57 I'm pretty sure you could almost say, I know that zazen is helpful for most states of body and mind. And I'm going to end with a few words from Zenki Blanche Hartman in... the Zen of not knowing. Report an error in the passage at 20:57 Highlight the passage at 20:57

21:15 Cultivate your beginner's mind. Be willing not to be an expert. Be willing not to know. Not knowing is nearest. Not knowing is most intimate. And I add, it is friendly. Thank you very much, friends. Merci beaucoup, les amis. Report an error in the passage at 21:15 Highlight the passage at 21:15

21:48 Oh, I forgot to chant at the beginning. Report an error in the passage at 21:48 Highlight the passage at 21:48

21:54 Q &A. Oh, okay, Q &A. Report an error in the passage at 21:54 Highlight the passage at 21:54

22:06 So if anyone has a question beyond Report an error in the passage at 22:06 Highlight the passage at 22:06

22:13 the car. Report an error in the passage at 22:13 Highlight the passage at 22:13

22:17 It was wonderful. Thank you. It's wonderful to share, Branch. our mountain source song go with you and it's amazing in the year and a half that i've known you how i watch you stretch and growing and grow in confidence and um i loved the sensitivity that you bring into your lectures Report an error in the passage at 22:17 Highlight the passage at 22:17

22:44 Thank you, Catherine. If I may say something, I am bursting to say something. It's a year and a half. you very much. Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 22:44 Highlight the passage at 22:44

22:51 For those who have known me a lot longer, it's also something else. Report an error in the passage at 22:51 Highlight the passage at 22:51

23:05 Hi, Anlor. Thank you so much for your lovely talk. I wanted to ask you if you had any tips for us about how to stay in that friendly state of not knowing. Is there a way that when you hear that I know show up, you're able to truncate it or... Find some place where you don't know. So I was just curious about your process for working with that mind that always wants to feel certain about things. Report an error in the passage at 23:05 Highlight the passage at 23:05

23:37 You know, I don't know. You know, I mean, when I was recounting this incident, I tried to practice zazen with that guy who was talking. Report an error in the passage at 23:37 Highlight the passage at 23:37

23:48 But that did not do it. I think it's better to pay attention to what is being said. Listen, maybe. I'm going to try that next. We'll see. if I ever see him again. Report an error in the passage at 23:48 Highlight the passage at 23:48

24:20 Thank you. So, you know, when I first started practicing and still, you know, I was maybe motivated by this idea that there were certain, like, hang-ups or patterns or habits that I had that were making me suffer and that this practice could help with that. But then, you know, When you think about neurodivergence, right, there's this idea that certain patterns that, you know, may have upsides and downsides are also just maybe wired in to our brains. Report an error in the passage at 24:20 Highlight the passage at 24:20

24:57 So how do we sort of distinguish between, okay, which things are sort of maybe conditioning that we can work through and which things are just inbuilt? And how do we work with all of that without Report an error in the passage at 24:57 Highlight the passage at 24:57

25:15 With the proper discernment and also without getting on our own case too much. Well, that part about being on your own case too much I think is very, in my experience and that of my partner, it seems it's quite a neurodiverse thing to do, to beat oneself up a lot, you know, like really. Report an error in the passage at 25:15 Highlight the passage at 25:15

25:42 And then the other thing, you know, I don't know exactly, you know, All I know from my own experience is that Zazen has helped me tremendously with that. Report an error in the passage at 25:42 Highlight the passage at 25:42

25:59 And that's all I know. Report an error in the passage at 25:59 Highlight the passage at 25:59

26:23 Yes, thank you for your talk. I was wondering, is there a distinction between not knowing state of mind and living with uncertainty? Or are they the same thing? Very interesting question. Report an error in the passage at 26:23 Highlight the passage at 26:23

26:37 Living with uncertainty, not knowing state of mind. Yeah, you see, that's a new perspective I hadn't thought. And, you know, there's something to it, definitely. Report an error in the passage at 26:37 Highlight the passage at 26:37

26:52 Thank you. All the things I do not know. Report an error in the passage at 26:52 Highlight the passage at 26:52

27:03 Well, right off the bat here, I don't know right off the bat. I would have to think about it more. But they definitely seem to have some similarities. I hear what you're saying. But I don't know. They do have differences too. Okay. Sorry to not be very helpful. Report an error in the passage at 27:03 Highlight the passage at 27:03

27:36 Do you think Zazen is universally helpful for all kinds of minds? That's a really good question. That's a really good question. I'm not sure. Report an error in the passage at 27:36 Highlight the passage at 27:36

27:58 I hear there is many different... different types. Report an error in the passage at 27:58 Highlight the passage at 27:58

28:09 And what do I know, say, about, you know, like schizophrenia or I don't know, you know? Report an error in the passage at 28:09 Highlight the passage at 28:09

28:19 Thank Report an error in the passage at 28:19 Highlight the passage at 28:19

28:45 you so much for a beautiful talk today. I find it quite auspicious because just this afternoon, while we were cleaning the dining room floor, I said to somebody, I said, you know, I'm just going to start with saying, I don't know. Without knowing how I was going to move forward with this practice, I stated out loud, I'm just going to say, I don't know. Report an error in the passage at 28:45 Highlight the passage at 28:45

29:12 And you now help me understand the connection between what I really desire and that is to always practice friendliness and openness, especially to those experiences where I find myself being certain. about something that causes separation that I know causes harm in myself and others. So you help me understand how I can move forward with practicing and I just want to thank you also for bringing Blanche's voice and spirit into the room. Report an error in the passage at 29:12 Highlight the passage at 29:12

29:46 Thank you. Thank you. Thank Report an error in the passage at 29:46 Highlight the passage at 29:46

30:05 you. Thank you, Anlor. We have a question that was typed into the chat from Jenna. Jenna asks, You talk about how you started to understand that behaviors you had attributed to your upbringing and your mother were actually more autistic traits. How did that knowing change your relationship with your family? It Report an error in the passage at 30:05 Highlight the passage at 30:05

30:30 made me really have a lot more compassion for my mother. I mean, when I realized this, I actually My mother lived in France, died in France during COVID several years ago. And I actually started to talk, at least to call her back regularly. When I hadn't, I was really... So that's how it really mended. Report an error in the passage at 30:30 Highlight the passage at 30:30

31:06 I mean, she was really upset at me for not taking care of her, but... I talk to her regularly. I remember calling and having 17-digit phone numbers to type in in order to get through to where she was in her hospital place or, you know, like here in the United States, you know, where people, this kind of thing. Report an error in the passage at 31:06 Highlight the passage at 31:06

31:35 Oh, and one more thing, Jenna. Report an error in the passage at 31:35 Highlight the passage at 31:35

31:45 It's important to me. It doesn't matter that much, but... My mom, well, it's quite very autistic for children not to say I love you to their parents, and parents are absolutely in despair over that sometimes. And I was completely the same, and I never told my mom, who was also the same, in despair over it. And guess what? I was able to tell her at some point, I love you. Report an error in the passage at 31:45 Highlight the passage at 31:45

32:13 Je t 'aime. Thank Report an error in the passage at 32:13 Highlight the passage at 32:13

32:28 you so much for your talk. When you were talking about the sensory reactions to noises and stimulus, I relate a lot. And I found sometimes that when I've been sitting zazen for a long time, those reactions actually become more intense. I feel more sensitive to sounds. sounds and it like will vibrate through my whole body. Report an error in the passage at 32:28 Highlight the passage at 32:28

33:05 And I wanted to hear your thoughts about the relationship between that reaction and intimacy. Report an error in the passage at 33:05 Highlight the passage at 33:05

33:30 You know, I totally get it that it opens you up, Zaza, to more. But then there is that The only way for me that I find to get through it is to embrace, to heal in a way. I don't know, to stay with it, to pay attention. And intimacy is, I think, also that part of staying with things, close to them and embracing them, kind of. Report an error in the passage at 33:30 Highlight the passage at 33:30

34:10 Does that make sense? Yeah, thank you. Okay, thank you. Report an error in the passage at 34:10 Highlight the passage at 34:10

34:31 Yeah, thank you. You mentioned the book by the 13-year-old Japanese boy, This Is Why I Jump. I read that book a few years ago. What struck me is, I don't know if you mentioned, he's completely nonverbal. He's autistic and completely nonverbal. So this was my interpretation or what I got from it was he was able to really say, this is what my inner world is like and I can't express this in any other way. Report an error in the passage at 34:31 Highlight the passage at 34:31

34:55 So I was wondering if there's anything that you would want everyone to know about being autistic and that may not be so obvious and how because he really got it across this is how I want the world to perceive me and is there something that you would like people to know Well, thank you for asking that. Report an error in the passage at 34:55 Highlight the passage at 34:55

35:21 And I really don't know what to say at this point. I mean, I am here in front of you and you can ask me anything later if you, you know, about that. Report an error in the passage at 35:21 Highlight the passage at 35:21

35:34 I don't really know. I mean, there's so much to any person. Report an error in the passage at 35:34 Highlight the passage at 35:34

35:43 I'm just so grateful that I can express myself. I am constantly, during Zaza, thinking of other autistic people who have it way more difficult than me. person to, you know. Report an error in the passage at 35:43 Highlight the passage at 35:43

36:09 May I be of help? I don't know. Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 36:09 Highlight the passage at 36:09

36:20 Maybe one more question? Report an error in the passage at 36:20 Highlight the passage at 36:20

36:27 I'm Anlor's partner, so I've been the beneficiary of a lot of very major change over the years. It's a real gift having a Zen practitioner in the household. My question is, in that change that I've observed, do you feel like... You observe lots of specific instances where you behaved in a way you would rather not in the future and then just kind of memorize those and avoid them in the future. Report an error in the passage at 36:27 Highlight the passage at 36:27

36:58 Or do you feel like Zazen is doing something like warming your heart at a deeper level and just sort of in a more general way? The second thing, totally. I ask that because it's kind of an autism-related question. Generals and specifics often are a big issue in autism. Anyway, thank you for your response. Thank you. That's my sense of you as well. Report an error in the passage at 36:58 Highlight the passage at 36:58

37:27 That's good. Ready for the show? Thank you, everyone. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma. Report an error in the passage at 37:27 Highlight the passage at 37:27