Spiritual Friendship & Dharma Friends

0:00 This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Report an error in the passage at 0:00 Highlight the passage at 0:00

0:15 Good evening. Good evening and welcome. And welcome to everyone online, now and in the future. Report an error in the passage at 0:15 Highlight the passage at 0:15

0:28 It's really wonderful to be here with so many friends, new and not yet met. What I'm hoping to speak about tonight is spiritual friendship. But before that, I would like to thank my teacher, Tenzin David Zimmerman and Tato Ten for inviting me to give this talk. Report an error in the passage at 0:28 Highlight the passage at 0:28

0:56 And to tell you just a little bit about myself, my name is Ellen. I am a resident priest here at City Center at the moment, and my work practice is outreach coordinator and volunteer coordinator. So I spend a lot of time outside in various community partnerships providing services and helping volunteers connect with volunteer opportunities to enhance their And I spend a lot of time in here too, sitting, so it's a nice balance. And then just a disclaimer that I hope that something that I have to say tonight will be of use to you in your practice, that will be encouraging. Report an error in the passage at 0:56 Highlight the passage at 0:56

1:42 And if there's nothing useful or something that's not useful, please just let it flow away and take its place somewhere else. Report an error in the passage at 1:42 Highlight the passage at 1:42

1:56 Saṅgha relationships are a very important part of Buddhist life, of course. And when I speak of Saṅgha, I'm thinking not only of residential Saṅgha or only of the times when one is in residence. I'm thinking more widely of the Buddhist community, wherever one finds oneself. And I'm also... I'm particularly interested in spiritual friendship because it's been something that's been very important to me in my life and especially in the later Buddhist part of my life. Report an error in the passage at 1:56 Highlight the passage at 1:56

2:33 And some of my spiritual friends have been, most of them have been fellow Buddhists, but some have not. And it's been interesting to me how people on a spiritual path often have Report an error in the passage at 2:33 Highlight the passage at 2:33

2:47 A wonderful ability to support each other and help each other stay on the path and be accountable and also enjoy being on the path. Report an error in the passage at 2:47 Highlight the passage at 2:47

2:59 So that's what prompted me to think about speaking about this this evening. And of course, it's not always straightforward. There are difficulties, of course, and joining any spiritual community, whether residentially or not, is not always straightforward. There are always questions of belonging and are you too Buddhist, not Buddhist enough, and all those questions. Report an error in the passage at 2:59 Highlight the passage at 2:59

3:28 I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in dharma. I take refuge in Saṅgha. And it's always interesting to see different communities' interpretation of Buddha, Dharma, Saṅgha. And I have one this evening that's a Thich Nhat Hanh. I take refuge in Buddha, the one who shows me the way in this life. I take refuge in Dharma, the way of understanding and love. I take refuge in Saṅgha, the community that lives in harmony, And awareness. Those are pretty big words, both harmony and awareness. So just a little outline of what I'm intending to talk about tonight. Report an error in the passage at 3:28 Highlight the passage at 3:28

4:30 Refuge, taking refuge in saṅgha. Why take refuge in saṅgha? What is saṅgha? What's the definition of saṅgha for you? What are the qualities of a friend? How do we show up for our friends? What are the roles of faith and trust in friendship and community? Report an error in the passage at 4:30 Highlight the passage at 4:30

4:51 And what are some supports for our path and for spiritual friendship? Zazen, precepts, vows, how do we remain accountable? What are the formal and informal ways that we can do this? And most of all, encouragement for us to be on the path and support each other in that way. Report an error in the passage at 4:51 Highlight the passage at 4:51

5:11 So first, Zen is relational. Saṅgha life is relationships. Dharma friends, spiritual friends, also known as Kalyana Mitra. are a great gift of Buddhist life. Dharma friendships and community are intertwined and these friendships are a great treasure of Buddhist life. Report an error in the passage at 5:11 Highlight the passage at 5:11

5:35 I try to meet them completely. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't. When we take refuge in Saṅgha, the basis of our relationships is these vows and these many other vows that we take. And flowing from them the precepts. We need this strong support for Saṅgha relationships because they are challenging and they are important. Report an error in the passage at 5:35 Highlight the passage at 5:35

6:06 And we put so much of ourselves into them. And to be able to respond appropriately, continuously, we really benefit from having this framework, the heartfelt vows and the precepts which flow from them and are a little more more specific and we can still make So Report an error in the passage at 6:06 Highlight the passage at 6:06

6:34 I have a comment on community from Ariel Stone. We become fully Buddhist not in isolation but through participation in communities that preserve what we have inherited, interpret it in light of current realities, and help shape what Buddhism will become. Report an error in the passage at 6:34 Highlight the passage at 6:34

6:59 A Buddhist community is a community based on vow. A group of people bound together, not because they always agree, but because they accept meaningful obligations to one another as individuals and the community and to a shared Buddhist future. Report an error in the passage at 6:59 Highlight the passage at 6:59

7:21 Vows ask us to show up, to listen, to wrestle with difficult questions, to care for one another. And to take responsibility for the health of the community itself. In this sense, community is more than a place where Buddhist life happens. It is the living framework through which meaning is created, tested, renewed, and carried forward. Report an error in the passage at 7:21 Highlight the passage at 7:21

7:54 So for me, one interpretation of that is when I say to myself, well, Zen centers should do And I just remind myself, I'm Zen Center. You're Zen Center. We're Zen Center. We, the community, wherever we are, we are Zen Center. So to try to turn it that way and really think about the larger community and my role in it. And a word from Suzuki Roshi. Report an error in the passage at 7:54 Highlight the passage at 7:54

8:27 If you want to live in the Buddhist way, you should follow some rules. Just living however you like is not the way. There must be some rules if you want to live in the true sense of the word in relationship with others and in relationship with the you who has been living in the past and who will live tomorrow. Report an error in the passage at 8:27 Highlight the passage at 8:27

8:51 Zen is not just personal practice and our enlightenment is not just personal attainment. It is when we find our position in this moment and when we live accordingly with other beings. Report an error in the passage at 8:51 Highlight the passage at 8:51

9:09 You should have various enlightenments. You should have various experiences. And you should put more emphasis on relationships between people. In this way, we should practice back and forth according to the position in which we find ourselves. This is the outline of our practice. If enlightenment were just collecting personal experiences, it would not help at all. Report an error in the passage at 9:09 Highlight the passage at 9:09

9:40 The point is to find your position moment after moment and to live with people moment after moment according to the place and the circumstances. Report an error in the passage at 9:40 Highlight the passage at 9:40

9:52 I really like this phrase, dharma position, although I'm not sure I have a completely full understanding of it. I remember first hearing it and I don't know, I had kind of a physical idea of... Being on a trapeze or some sort of physical position. So that's part of my experience with living in Buddhism is I really like this idea of dharma position because it really speaks to causes and condition, time and space, relationships with people because dharma position is my personal dharma position is constantly changing and I can't make an appropriate response unless I take that into account. Report an error in the passage at 9:52 Highlight the passage at 9:52

10:39 And that's not easy to do. Report an error in the passage at 10:39 Highlight the passage at 10:39

10:45 Doing that helps me widen my aperture before I make a decision. And considering entering dharma relationships, I have some thoughts from Dainan Katagiri. He says, Dogen Zenji suggested to us that first we have right faith. Right faith is not waiting until we understand something and then doing it. Faith is to do something. Report an error in the passage at 10:45 Highlight the passage at 10:45

11:15 Even though our consciousness tells us we don't have faith, and even though we don't know what right faith is, to have faith is to do something. To do something is to live. But to live by ourselves and still know human life in a broad way is pretty hard because each of us already has our own territory, Report an error in the passage at 11:15 Highlight the passage at 11:15

11:45 preconceptions. Egoistic sense, heredity, and characteristics. So it is pretty hard to know human life from a universal perspective. We have to get out of this small well in which we find ourselves. We always feel comfortable there. But even if it is only once, we have to get out. And for that, we need guidance. Just show your life. Just be there. Here I am. Report an error in the passage at 11:45 Highlight the passage at 11:45

12:19 Even though you don't bring any religious terms or spirit, you just show your life. Always, here I am. That is enough. But can you stand up in here I am, in the completely naked nature of a human being? And I appreciate that our great teachers of the past, present, acknowledge the difficulty of really showing up for oneself and therefore being able to show up for others. Report an error in the passage at 12:19 Highlight the passage at 12:19

12:59 and how do we show up, what helps us show up, and what way do we show up. I love this word. To appreciate our life, to appreciate what's happening, you know, coming from a medical background, we say, you know, Report an error in the passage at 12:59 Highlight the passage at 12:59

13:20 A mass was appreciated in the lower left quadrant. So as you see it, you see it, what are you seeing? I appreciate what is here today, and I also value it. So in both senses of the word, I love that word. With respect, we had a wonderful dharma talk on respect from Jan Willis. Report an error in the passage at 13:20 Highlight the passage at 13:20

13:39 With unconditional positive regard, which is another word for love. With constancy, with commitment, and with composure. Report an error in the passage at 13:39 Highlight the passage at 13:39

13:52 Not always easy, all of those. So how do we cultivate these important qualities? Through our experiences in saṅgha, through zazen, through working with the precepts. Report an error in the passage at 13:52 Highlight the passage at 13:52

14:08 So many thoughts on zazen, but here's one that I like, again from Dainin Katagiri. Dogen Zenji emphasizes that zazen is not a means to an end, but that zazen is chi-ju-yu samādhi. Chi means self, ju means receive, You means use and samādhi means oneness. And of course there are multiple interpretations one could give to that word. This is his. Report an error in the passage at 14:08 Highlight the passage at 14:08

14:38 That is why samādhi is translated as right acceptance. This means you receive your life and simultaneously the whole universe. For you should trust in you because you are you, but simultaneously you are already an enlightened person. Report an error in the passage at 14:38 Highlight the passage at 14:38

14:58 We are beings embossed by the universe, whether we trust this or not. It is completely beyond trusting or not. So again, the importance of our conditioned self, being our self, and at the same time holding it lightly. Report an error in the passage at 14:58 Highlight the passage at 14:58

15:21 How do we hold ourselves accountable in this difficult, fascinating, and rewarding work of saṅgha relationships and dharma friendships? Report an error in the passage at 15:21 Highlight the passage at 15:21

15:33 I think one of the most important aspects of, benefits of, pleasures of a spiritual friendship is this holding each other accountable in a very direct and yet gentle way, creating in a sense a safe space between us where we can go and give and receive information Report an error in the passage at 15:33 Highlight the passage at 15:33

15:59 about how we are. Seeing ourselves in how we perceive the other. How are we doing being in alignment with the precepts? How are we keeping our vows? It's really a wonderful, supportive space to be in. Report an error in the passage at 15:59 Highlight the passage at 15:59

16:23 Buddha spoke of excellent friends, and I really love that term for a spiritual friend, an excellent friend, and how excellent friends contribute to saṅgha harmony and cohesion. Report an error in the passage at 16:23 Highlight the passage at 16:23

16:39 And the Mita Sutta, Speaks of qualities of an excellent friend. Someone who shares time, energy or possessions even when it's difficult. Report an error in the passage at 16:39 Highlight the passage at 16:39

16:53 Steps up to help or makes personal sacrifices for your well-being. Patiently stays by your side through pain, grief or hardship. Report an error in the passage at 16:53 Highlight the passage at 16:53

17:04 And trusts you enough to share deep personal vulnerabilities. Safely guards your confidences and private struggles. remains loyal and supportive when hard times or disasters strike. Report an error in the passage at 17:04 Highlight the passage at 17:04

17:19 treats you with respect and equality even when you And again, this is a time to think about the precepts, which can really give us a wonderful, flexible and yet firm framework for how we approach our spiritual path. And that's why we renew the precepts. Every month, as we will be doing next week, as we do every month, and often we have small groups during that time where we discuss one of the precepts. Report an error in the passage at 17:19 Highlight the passage at 17:19

17:58 There's just a wonderful framework for Saṅgha life and Saṅgha friendships. Report an error in the passage at 17:58 Highlight the passage at 17:58

18:09 Supposedly, a student asked Suzuki Roshi if he kept an eye on his students to see if they were following the precepts, and his response was, I don't pay any attention to whether you are following the precepts or not. I just notice how you are with one another. Report an error in the passage at 18:09 Highlight the passage at 18:09

18:28 So a little more on accountability because it is important and it's not always easy. And this is from Reb from his book on the precepts. Report an error in the passage at 18:28 Highlight the passage at 18:28

18:43 With whom do you set up standards of practice in your daily life? The ancestors warned us not to set up standards of our own. Without support, how do you know that you're not just practicing according to your dispositions and going along with your prejudices? In order to practice the precepts, we all need someone in our lives to whom we are accountable, someone who we have asked to give us feedback on our practice, someone to guide us in finding a balance in the midst of our likes and dislikes. Report an error in the passage at 18:43 Highlight the passage at 18:43

19:22 So Dharma Friends can offer us trust, genuine engagement, and a few words on trust. Report an error in the passage at 19:22 Highlight the passage at 19:22

19:36 We spoke about faith a little bit earlier, and I meant to say at that time, when we're speaking of faith in that sense, it's not blind faith. It's more, it's almost courage of, yes, I don't fully understand this yet. I know in a deep way of knowing that this is right, I'm in alignment, and I can proceed. And that's also true for trust. Report an error in the passage at 19:36 Highlight the passage at 19:36

20:05 It's not absolute blind trust. It's a knowing with the body and mind together that I am in alignment with this, and this is safe for me right now. Report an error in the passage at 20:05 Highlight the passage at 20:05

20:20 So these words are from Daijaku Kinst and her book on Her beautiful book, Trust, Realization, and the Self in Soto Zen. Report an error in the passage at 20:20 Highlight the passage at 20:20

20:32 Saṅgha relationships viewed through the lens of supportive and transforming aspects based in growing honesty, intimacy, and trust aim at the realization of the teachings. In any saṅgha or teaching relationship, there is also the inevitability of misunderstandings, Misperceptions and distortions. This can be an opportunity for real learning as the students are disentangled from romantic notions about each other and are able to meet intimately, eye to eye. Report an error in the passage at 20:32 Highlight the passage at 20:32

21:13 This kind of genuine meeting, not dependent on characteristics or conditions, fosters a trust that is also not dependent on circumstances. Report an error in the passage at 21:13 Highlight the passage at 21:13

21:26 Mutual respect and caring are essential to the intimacy that develops between dharma friends. The basis of this respect and caring is found in the practice, in mutual devotion to Buddha's way. Report an error in the passage at 21:26 Highlight the passage at 21:26

21:40 Trust is the only foundation on which this kind of relationship can be built. This trust begins with respectful mutual regard, evolves through various experiences of honest encounter. Report an error in the passage at 21:40 Highlight the passage at 21:40

21:57 This requires honesty, familiarity with the feel of one's own wisdom, and I really want to repeat that, familiarity with the feel of one's own wisdom. This is how we show up for ourselves, to ourselves. We appreciate our own wisdom and the ability to stand in one's clarity or confusion while remaining open to others. Report an error in the passage at 21:57 Highlight the passage at 21:57

22:29 is closely related to the maturity described by self-psychologists. Report an error in the passage at 22:29 Highlight the passage at 22:29

22:38 engagement with all aspects of the practice, particularly the saṅgha and the teacher-student relationships. In this way, trust and the self are transformed and can be fully expressed in all dimensions of practice. Report an error in the passage at 22:38 Highlight the passage at 22:38

22:56 That's a lot to take on. Report an error in the passage at 22:56 Highlight the passage at 22:56

23:03 And it requires an openness to ourselves and to others. It requires, as we all know, the ability to ask, what is this right now, right here? Report an error in the passage at 23:03 Highlight the passage at 23:03

23:20 To understand that just this is it. And again, what is this? Which allows us to be open to questions, questions rather than answers. Genuine curiosity rather than wanting or providing advice. When we ask an open question, we've not yet found an answer. And this leaves the mind free, unobstructed, and ready for adventure. And yet there is nothing ignorant or vague about this openness because questioning actively engages the movement and fluidity of life. Report an error in the passage at 23:20 Highlight the passage at 23:20

24:03 Our task as practitioners is to bring the teachings to life in a personal way. No one can tell us how to do it. This is the practitioner's koan, The Open Question. And this is from Elizabeth Mattis Namjel, who wrote a book called The Power of an Open Question. Report an error in the passage at 24:03 Highlight the passage at 24:03

24:30 And finally, some words from Annie Dillard. The need to live with others is not conditional. Nor can one abrogate it. We are all affected by one another, and there is no such thing as a perfectly ethical life. There is only us. There is no one but us. There is no one to send, nor a clean hand, or a pure heart on the face of the earth, nor in the earth, but only us, a generation comforting ourselves with the notion that we have come at an awkward time. Report an error in the passage at 24:30 Highlight the passage at 24:30

25:12 that our innocent ancestors are all dead as if innocence had ever been and our children are busy and troubled and we ourselves unfit not yet ready having each of us chosen wrongly made a false start failed yielded to impulse and the tangled comfort of pleasure and grown exhausted unable to seek the thread weak and involved But there is no one but us. There never has been. Report an error in the passage at 25:12 Highlight the passage at 25:12

25:48 And my final encouragement is for us to let joy arise and be welcomed as we come into alignment with our vows within saṅgha, with our dharma friends, our spiritual friends, our practice leaders, and our teachers. I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in dharma. I take refuge in saṅgha. And I thank you for your kind attention. Report an error in the passage at 25:48 Highlight the passage at 25:48

26:15 And I welcome your questions. Report an error in the passage at 26:15 Highlight the passage at 26:15

26:20 We have lots of time for questions. Or Report an error in the passage at 26:20 Highlight the passage at 26:20

26:32 perhaps I have explained everything. Can Report an error in the passage at 26:32 Highlight the passage at 26:32

26:42 you Report an error in the passage at 26:42 Highlight the passage at 26:42

26:49 say something about your, maybe a personal situation where you had a friendship, a dharma friendship, and how it challenged you or particularly supported you in your practice and what you discovered in that process? Report an error in the passage at 26:49 Highlight the passage at 26:49

27:07 Yes. So I have a dharma friend who has a way of expressing things that I found really difficult to hear. And I knew that this person had a kind heart and did not intend for this to land the way it did. And I needed to really wait until the right moment, the moment that both of us were in. Report an error in the passage at 27:07 Highlight the passage at 27:07

27:43 An intimacy that was open enough and grounded enough that I could say this in that way with a pretty good understanding that they could hear it. And that worked. And we decided to work together to figure out a better way for them to express this thought. So is that what you're looking for? Report an error in the passage at 27:43 Highlight the passage at 27:43

28:13 Too vague? I'm not looking for anything. I just want to hear your personal experience. Yeah. Yeah, I've had Dharma friends just call me up, call me out. It's great. And depending on who it is, you know, someone I have a really long... Actually, one of my best Dharma friends is a rabbi, and she's not shy. Report an error in the passage at 28:13 Highlight the passage at 28:13

28:34 So I've been part of that culture as well, so I'm also not shy. So she's pretty able to... statement. Report an error in the passage at 28:34 Highlight the passage at 28:34

28:42 I have learned to... Report an error in the passage at 28:42 Highlight the passage at 28:42

29:16 over many years, as you know. To wait and not respond. And that's very effective because it can take, you know, I've just learned that it's better to wait and let it sit and settle sometimes for days. So every relationship, it's always worth it. It's always worth it. It's always worth it. Thank you and thank you for your encouragement. Report an error in the passage at 29:16 Highlight the passage at 29:16

29:59 Thank you for your talk. This is really important. I'm also really interested in your personal experience, but this time with accountability and trust. Report an error in the passage at 29:59 Highlight the passage at 29:59

30:21 Well, for me, it takes a lot of looking at myself before I... I have to see what's going on with myself before I ask anybody else to be accountable. And that's my being accountable to myself. Report an error in the passage at 30:21 Highlight the passage at 30:21

30:38 And, you know, I think that's why Zazen is so important because it can take a lot of being with what's going on with myself. Report an error in the passage at 30:38 Highlight the passage at 30:38

30:49 about how I'm showing up for myself and others before I ask anyone else to be accountable. And we are asked to do a lot of holding each other accountable, specifically in residential living. And it can be very challenging to do that in a way that is warm enough and open enough and gives the person enough space to respond. Report an error in the passage at 30:49 Highlight the passage at 30:49

31:13 It's very challenging. Report an error in the passage at 31:13 Highlight the passage at 31:13

31:17 Yeah. Did you have a follow-up for that? Please. Report an error in the passage at 31:17 Highlight the passage at 31:17

31:23 What you said reminds me of one of Wendell Berry's lines, love changes and in the change is true, that you have to wait for that to and respond, not react. Since you have practiced both as a lay person for a long time and as a priest for a long time, or a little less long time, but pretty long time, how does How does accountability and trust change in your experience? Because you face the public in different ways as a layperson and as a priest. Report an error in the passage at 31:23 Highlight the passage at 31:23

32:03 Who are you? Is it the same or different in your own life and in your own experience? Yeah, interesting question. Report an error in the passage at 32:03 Highlight the passage at 32:03

32:18 Yeah, the roles are different. I will say, having had so many years as a parent and as a clinician, I do draw on that a great deal because I can... Report an error in the passage at 32:18 Highlight the passage at 32:18

32:36 I have that bodily experience of moderating my responses. As a lay Buddhist, Report an error in the passage at 32:36 Highlight the passage at 32:36

32:50 you know, as you know, I did have a sitting group as a lay Buddhist. so um I think it all feels much more grounded and I feel actually much more supported as a priest. Report an error in the passage at 32:50 Highlight the passage at 32:50

33:09 It's somehow, it just feels wider the way that I'm able to be accountable to myself and others feels much wider and more supported. And I'd like to provide that support more. It's one of the things I try to do as a volunteer. to Report an error in the passage at 33:09 Highlight the passage at 33:09

33:28 Coordinator is to provide that kind of support and guidance to volunteers one at a time and help them find their dharma position and feel supported in that way. Report an error in the passage at 33:28 Highlight the passage at 33:28

33:51 Who is first? We have lots of time. Hi. Thank you for having me. It's really nice to be here. Yeah, thanks for your dharma talk. I was just wondering, like, If you could speak to relationships, like romantic relationships, where there's just been a lot of harm caused. Report an error in the passage at 33:51 Highlight the passage at 33:51

34:21 When there's a lot of harm caused in any relationship, romantic or otherwise, that's a different situation, isn't it? It's not just a misunderstanding, and it is a misunderstanding. understanding and that can that That can require not just repair by the two people involved. It can require outside support for each of you to really look at what is happening in order to not cause more harm and to prevent someone not to receive more harm and to prevent someone from causing more harm. Report an error in the passage at 34:21 Highlight the passage at 34:21

35:03 And a lot of space and a lot of zaza and really good spiritual support from others I think is very important there. And time. Report an error in the passage at 35:03 Highlight the passage at 35:03

35:14 And showing up for yourself. Thank Report an error in the passage at 35:14 Highlight the passage at 35:14

35:23 you for your question. Report an error in the passage at 35:23 Highlight the passage at 35:23

35:28 Thank you for your talk. I was wondering, I thought I heard something at the beginning that said, I thought I heard unconditional positivity. And I wasn't sure if I heard that right. It was unconditional. Unconditional positive regard. Unconditional positive regard. Sorry to interrupt. Thank you. That's what I wanted to know. What do you do when the truth doesn't, is making that, or I don't know, just any sort of suggestion when the truth seems like it's making that difficult and just general thoughts? Report an error in the passage at 35:28 Highlight the passage at 35:28

36:02 It's really hard to just look at someone with the assumption that This person means well, even if they don't realize it. It's really hard. I think it's the hardest thing. And being around someone who does that all the time is the best training. And I recommend trying to find someone. It's very hard. I think it is the hardest thing in Buddhist life is to really... Report an error in the passage at 36:02 Highlight the passage at 36:02

36:38 It doesn't mean you have to approve of what they're doing. It doesn't mean you have to put yourself in harm's way. But just to be able to really approach an individual with that basic trust that you can love them. Great. Thank you. That's hard. Report an error in the passage at 36:38 Highlight the passage at 36:38

37:03 It looks like we have some questions online. We'll get to as many as we can. Who is it? Terry, please unmute and go ahead. Report an error in the passage at 37:03 Highlight the passage at 37:03

37:24 Thank you, Ellen, and I greatly appreciate the number of times when you said something and said, this is hard to do, you know, because a lot of times when you said something about, oh, no, and then when you said, acknowledging it was hard, that was helpful to me. I'm having a... I have a spiritual friend who feels feels very wounded and hurt by me and doesn't know, doesn't want to have contact. Report an error in the passage at 37:24 Highlight the passage at 37:24

38:09 She hasn't told me not to contact her, so I have written her. But she said, maybe someday, you know, I will want to contact you again. Report an error in the passage at 38:09 Highlight the passage at 38:09

38:20 And... Report an error in the passage at 38:20 Highlight the passage at 38:20

38:24 I've had also these Resentments against her, you know, and truly have not been able to see her as coming forward. She's kind of a scary, she scares me. You know, she's got a kind of ferocious energy, you know, and it's very difficult for me to see her, as you said, you know, coming from a very very positive viewpoint. So I've asked her to get, if she would be willing Yeah, Report an error in the passage at 38:24 Highlight the passage at 38:24

39:25 you always... therapy with me, to talk about our relationship. So do you have any... What's my, how do I get, understand my part of it? Report an error in the passage at 39:25 Highlight the passage at 39:25

39:20 I guess that's really the big question for me, I'm realizing. You solved it yourself. That is the question. And you already have a lot of information that you've already shared. She frightens you. Report an error in the passage at 39:20 Highlight the passage at 39:20

39:36 And you know what I'm going to say, Terry. I'm going to say Zazen. This is something you really need to sit with and journal about. And I don't know if therapy is the answer. It sounds like even before that, you have a lot of information that you... I'm not fully accessing, but I can feel little volcanic bursts. It's in there, so I recommend sitting with that and really writing it down and giving each other a little bit of space right now sounds like it might be helpful. Report an error in the passage at 39:36 Highlight the passage at 39:36

40:11 Writing, physically writing letters is such a wonderful process. It's a wonderful practice. Just read them twice and maybe burn some. Report an error in the passage at 40:11 Highlight the passage at 40:11

40:22 Oh, gee. I wish I just put a letter in the mailbox. You can't get it out, Terry. That's a felony. Don't do it. But, you know, I'm more serious. That's why I talk about this, because this is difficult for me, spiritual friendships. I do struggle at times, so that's why. I pick topics that are hard for me. So, thank you. Thank you so much, Ellen. I think somebody here. Report an error in the passage at 40:22 Highlight the passage at 40:22

40:52 Another question in the room. Hi, thank you so much for your talk. I think you said that one of your favorite words is appreciation. And I would love to just hear more about why it is one of your favorite words. What resonates with you? What I like about it is that it includes both seeing what is happening and what is really present and valuing it. Report an error in the passage at 40:52 Highlight the passage at 40:52

41:18 So it's not just, oh, I love that. You know, it's what is really here? So really seeing it, and again, even though perhaps my medical analogy was not entirely appropriate for this crowd, I like it because that's what it is. It's like, what is here? What are its dimensions? What does it feel like? What does it look like? Is it important? So seeing what's really here and then valuing it, whatever it is, it's really kind of a fancy word for what is this, just this is it. Report an error in the passage at 41:18 Highlight the passage at 41:18

41:53 So that's why I like it. And I like to use it for my life because sometimes it can be hard. Like whatever's going on, I want to see what it is and I want to value it. You know, there's this phrase in a guided meditation, we give thanks for today's health, whatever it is. We give thanks, we are grateful for today's health. It's a really interesting practice. Does that help? Thank you. Report an error in the passage at 41:53 Highlight the passage at 41:53

42:25 I think we might have one more online. Do we have one more? Who is it? David, would you go ahead, please? Unmute. Hi, this is Tara. Hi, Ellen. Hi, Tara. Report an error in the passage at 42:25 Highlight the passage at 42:25

42:38 I just wanted to say, like, in terms of, like, thinking about spiritual friendship and, like, when I was coming and sitting Zazen in the evenings, and that's kind of all that I was doing, and you would talk to me, and eventually you were like, do you want to come up to dinner? And I was like, oh yeah, I guess I can do that. And you're like, yeah. And then I started coming up for dinner and now I come all the time and I do all the practice periods and I come and sit and I do Doanryo and I feel like you were the spiritual friend. Report an error in the passage at 42:38 Highlight the passage at 42:38

43:16 You had your hand out, you opened the door for me to really explore being in this practice in so many different ways. Thank you. And then I also, it's such a good model. And so, you know, I also try to do that with others. So I like to invite people up to dinner, even though I don't even know if like I have, if it's appropriate, but I'd like to come up to dinner and, and I like to show people around. Report an error in the passage at 43:16 Highlight the passage at 43:16

43:52 And like I was talking to this woman and saying like, oh yeah, I'm going to do this practice period. I think it's going to be great and all this. And I totally forgot because I was saying that to a lot of people about that practice period. And then it was so cool. She told me like the only reason that I decided to do this or that I even thought about doing this was because we had that talk. Report an error in the passage at 43:52 Highlight the passage at 43:52

44:13 And this was like at the end of the practice period. And I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. So it's like the, yeah, like that. having your, having, opening that door for someone, it's like contagious, you know? Report an error in the passage at 44:13 Highlight the passage at 44:13

44:27 Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered at no cost and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma. Report an error in the passage at 44:27 Highlight the passage at 44:27